Largest "small" speaker

[ken kaczmarz]

I am thinking about new main speakers. I have two SVS subs, so I plan to set the main speakers to small. What would be the largest main RF speaker that one should buy? Clearly purchasing an RF-7 and setting it to small is a waste of cash.

Your thoughts?

Kaz

[Zen Traveler]

I have the speakers listed below crossed at 60 Hz along with 2 RSW subs and have never thought it to be a waste of cash...

[dtel]

I use forte ll's set to small, it takes a load off your amp and to me also sounded better than bass being reproduced from each speaker which would be tough to get right. the bass sounded cleaner.

I think the best way is to try it both ways and see what sounds best to you, every room sounds different, so see what sounds best in yours. I would

I don't know what would be the Largest "small" speaker, I guess it would depend on the sound ?

I would get the biggest you can, the sub is easily adjusted. To me and even LARGE speakers can use a sub, I can hear a difference when I turn off the sub, with speakers much bigger than a Cornwall.

[carbon summit]

I use forte ll's set to small, it takes a load off your amp and to me also sounded better than bass being reproduced from each speaker which would be tough to get right. the bass sounded cleaner.

I think the best way is to try it both ways and see what sounds best to you, every room sounds different, so see what sounds best in yours. I would

I don't know what would be the Largest "small" speaker, I guess it would depend on the sound ?

I would get the biggest you can, the sub is easily adjusted. To me and even LARGE speakers can use a sub, I can hear a difference when I turn off the sub, with speakers much bigger than a Cornwall.

+1

I've got both Forte IIs and Cornwalls. A sub helps both sound better.

Which SVS subs do you have?

[SuBXeRo]

your question is pretty good, but i think you should also look at the vocal characteristics. The smaller the horn, the smaller the sound really. My rf-5s are more open than my rf-3's which are more open than the rb-3's which are more open than the rf-10's I used to have. The horn size has alot to do with this as well as the tweeter size. You're right though, to set a pair of rf-7's to small would almost be a crime. As said above, even large speakers can use a sub. I don't think, after all of the models that i have heard, i could ever go back to the rf-10's unless i didnt have a choice. They sound clean and clear but the rf-5's i just got blow them away.

I have been playing around a little bit with a sub i got as part of a package deal on c-list and i kept them full range with the sub crossed at 60 hz. I mean at that point, id probably go ahead and cross the rf-5's at about 55hz and give a small gap. I prefer the sub to really just handle the lows, basically where the towers bass starts to really get taxed is where the sub could take over so it sounds fluid, if that makes any sense.

The THX standard is 80hz crossover, might be something to consider as well.

Edit: I dont know if you have the capabilities to mess with the frequency crossovers, if you dont, setting the speake to small and setting the crossover to 80hz on the sub would probably do the trick.

[CECAA850]

Clearly purchasing an RF-7 and setting it to small is a waste of cash.

I would beg to differ. Any speaker that's not flat to 20Hz should be set to small and the info that the speaker is physically unable to reproduce should be sent to the sub. A good rule of thumb is to set the crossover 1/2 to 1 octave above the lowest frequency a speaker can reproduce. The crossover is not a brick wall and some info below the crossover point will still get through. You can't do that if your speakers are set to large. Don't get hung up on the Large, Small nomenclature.

[jacksonbart]

I love Cash

[smokarz]

I love Cash

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[ken kaczmarz]

Thanks. The root of the question is....if you are planning on setting the speaker to small....or setting your crossover at 80hz....are you throwing away cash if you buy RF7 vs RF82II?........for the savings, I can get a new center channel. The cost difference is HUGE between these two.

[RockOn4Klipsch]

Ive got rf 7s rf 5s and la scalas for movies they are all set to "small". Music , 7s set to large la scalas still set to small.

[Rudy81]

I would beg to differ. Any speaker that's not flat to 20Hz should be set to small and the info that the speaker is physically unable to reproduce should be sent to the sub. A good rule of thumb is to set the crossover 1/2 to 1 octave above the lowest frequency a speaker can reproduce. The crossover is not a brick wall and some info below the crossover point will still get through. You can't do that if your speakers are set to large. Don't get hung up on the Large, Small nomenclature.

Its a shame the industry chose 'large' and 'small' to qualify the response of home theater speakers. I believe that nomenclature strikes at the heart of audio enthusiasts and no self respecting audio aficionado wants to have 'small' speakers. The reality is that this is all about a speaker's ability to reproduce 20Hz to 20kHz and there are few and far between out there at any price range. When I got my RSW-15's, I set my Khorns to 'small' and they never sounded better. Let's face it, the mighty Khorn can't produce 20Hz at a reasonable level.

I currently use my DIY DBB's with RSW-15's to pick up the very low end. Since I am actively crossing, they act as 'one' speaker so I have them set to large. Otherwise, I would let my subwoofer do what subwoofers are good at doing.

Please ignore the 'large' / 'small' ego trip and set your speakers to 'small'. Let a good sub do the heavy lifting in the very lowest frequencies. Now, if you are doing this for 2 channel, you are going to need a pretty good subwoofer that can keep up with most of the mains we listen to. If you do this right, you will never go back to letting a physically large speaker be a 'large' speaker.

Just my .02 cents worth.

[Rich_Guy]

The labeling "Large" and "Small" is misleading, it would be better labeled as "Using a Sub" (Small) and "Not Using a Sub" (Large or Full).

It really isn't about how large the speaker is, when you set the speaker to "Small" it means that you will set the crossover point to what works best with your speaker and subwoofer combo. Even large speakers that have excellent bass will normally be better off set to "Small" when coupled with a good subwoofer, however the crossover setting can be set lower to let the speaker use more of its own bass before the subwoofer takes over.

[CECAA850]

Thanks. The root of the question is....if you are planning on setting the speaker to small....or setting your crossover at 80hz....are you throwing away cash if you buy RF7 vs RF82II?........for the savings, I can get a new center channel. The cost difference is HUGE between these two.

I've had different Reference speakers in my living room and crossed them over at the same frequency. They did NOT sound the same. The larger speakers sounded fuller and more effortless to me, even with the same crossover point. You can also cross a larger speaker over lower if you want to as well as using them without a sub for 2 channel listening. If you can, get the larger speaker, you'll save money in the long run when the inevitable upgrade bug bites. You'll already be inoculated.

[inder19]

I just picked up the RF-7II package and was having a similar 'issue'.

I have found the for watching movies I like the sound best with the fronts at 40hz or 60hz. At 40hz I like the amount of bass and at 60hz I find that the mid ends up sounding much better and bass doesn't really suffer much at all because the subs still hit just as hard. I think its because there is more power to drive a narrower frequency range on the fronts.

Now for music....setting the speakers to large sounds the best but then the subwoofer stays off unless i turn on "double bass" at which point the bass sounds overpowering and boomy. Switching it to 40hz on fronts gets the subwoofer going and it sounds really good but the fronts just don't sound the same. I don't know if someone else has a solution to this and whether or not its possible to have the speakers set differently for different modes ie large for music and small for movies.

And for the RF7II vs RF82II if you listen to music a lot I would definitely go with the RF-7s they sound amazing. Even having them set to "small" they sound better than the rf-82II. The first day I set them up I hadn't realized that the subs were off because I was listening on "direct" mode.... I would say they are worth every penny. With the RF-82II you can't go wrong either. I wouldn't say you are throwing away cash but if the choice is RF-7II vs RF82II+centre and you primarily watch movies I would go with the RF-82II+centre

[Rich_Guy]

I just picked up the RF-7II package and was having a similar 'issue'.
I have found the for watching movies I like the sound best with the fronts at 40hz or 60hz. At 40hz I like the amount of bass and at 60hz I find that the mid ends up sounding much better and bass doesn't really suffer much at all because the subs still hit just as hard. I think its because there is more power to drive a narrower frequency range on the fronts.





Now for music....setting the speakers to large sounds the best but then the subwoofer stays off unless i turn on "double bass" at which point the bass sounds overpowering and boomy. Switching it to 40hz on fronts gets the subwoofer going and it sounds really good but the fronts just don't sound the same. I don't know if someone else has a solution to this and whether or not its possible to have the speakers set differently for different modes ie large for music and small for movies.





And for the RF7II vs RF82II if you listen to music a lot I would definitely go with the RF-7s they sound amazing. Even having them set to "small" they sound better than the rf-82II. The first day I set them up I hadn't realized that the subs were off because I was listening on "direct" mode.... I would say they are worth every penny. With the RF-82II you can't go wrong either. I wouldn't say you are throwing away cash but if the choice is RF-7II vs RF82II+centre and you primarily watch movies I would go with the RF-82II+centre

For music I prefer 2 channel and usually listen to music in "Pure" listening mode, in this mode the front speakers are the only one used and are automatically set to "Full".

I have preferred using "Pure" listening mode for music ever since I added my Emotiva amp. Before using the amp and only using a receiver I preferred using "Stereo" listening mode for music, this also uses the subwoofer (I used a lower volume on the sub for music and higher for HT). With the amp "Pure" listening mode had enough bass to not need the sub. Once I added the amp "Pure" listening mode really came alive and sounds very good musically.

So for HT I use 60hz at the fronts with 70hz at the surrounds all speaker set to "Small", for music I use 2 channel "Pure" mode which automatically puts the fronts in "Full" mode.

[Quiet_Hollow]

The reason the AVR industry uses the labels "small" and "large" is because if you actually follow THX or pro-audio protocol setting your crossover point between 80-120 Hz, the cab size actually required to run down to those frequencies, at reference levels in a home theater environment, is for all intensive purposes "small". Think satellite....like KPT-250 / Heresy or smaller even in the case of some MTM's.

I wholeheartedly agree with the "sub / no sub" moniker. If anything, it would remove any confusion pertaining to what the setting really means.

If you're setting your crossover any lower than that, something else is awry with your system....shallow filter slopes, ineffective sub placement or performance.

[Big Dog]

I just received a ED A5-350 sub Tuesday night and find these posts very helpful. I have a RC-62 II, RS-62 II and a 14 year old pair of KG 4.5s for the fronts. I am considering replacing the KG 4.5 to match the sound of the RC-62 II and have asked myself the same question.

Thanks again for everyone sharing their experiences. Heres how I understand this issue of using a sub to get the best sound. Let the sub handle all non-directional sound regardless of the quality of the other speakers. 20-50hz can only be felt not heard. 50-80hz can be heard but is non directional in that you can't tell where the sound is coming from. So, send any "sound" below 80hz to the subwoofer. Also, the subwoofer will handle any sound from the LFE Channel (the .1 in 5.1). This LFE Channel only contains sound below 120hz.

This means the Fronts, Center and Surrounds are only handling "sound" above 80hz. Given that, do you need the 10" woofers in the RF-7s or is the 8" woofer in other speakers including the RF-82 IIs going to sound just as good. I see the responses, but pose another question. How would the RB-81 IIs sound, compared to these other two speakers? The RB-81 has only one 8" woofer and a smaller enclosure.

[Islander]

I find myself in disagreement with a lot of what I'm reading here. The purpose of the sub is to assist the speaker with the bottom 1-3 octaves of the sound. The speakers are not there to assist the sub, so picking a speaker based on what your sub can do is really putting the cart before the horse.

Get a test CD or DVD and a sound level meter and see where your speakers are actually rolling off. Their low bass response in your room may be quite different from the speakers' published specs. You may need to move the meter around a bit, due to peaks and nulls near your sitting position. Many speakers start to lose bass volume at 70Hz or higher. With La Scalas, it can be as high as 90-100Hz, so the sub cut-off might even need to be a bit higher than that.

Once you've done that, turn on the sub and set it (both hi-cut and level) to give a relatively flat response when combined with the speakers. It's a good idea to write down your results, because it will take a few tries to get the sub dialed in. Since neither the speakers nor the sub cut off sharply, there will be an area of overlap in the mid-to-upper bass region.

Try to hear the difference between having the speakers set to Small and set to Large, and see what sounds most realistic, most like live music. Your room will have some influence on the sound, so what works for one forum member may not work for another.

The location of the sub is also very important and it will take some experimenting to find the best one. Ideally, it should be between or at least near the main speakers, but it will depend on the room. The spot that looks logical or convenient will not work if it causes unpleasant bass peaks and nulls in your particular room.

Once your speakers and sub(s) are working together properly, they should sound right with all kinds of music, unless there's something odd with a particular recording. The same settings should be good for movies, too, unless you feel the need for explosions to hit you extra hard.

[Big Dog]

This post brings up two interest points

1. Placement of Sub - Sound characteristics dictates placement.

I have one question about this with regard to Home Theater for Movies. The LFE Channel carries frequencies upto 120hz. This means that the listener can tell the direction of the sound for the frequencies from 80hz to 120hz. What is the intended placement or the intended direction of these sounds on the LFE Channel?

2. Should non-directional frequencies be sent to both the sub and the source channel?

Some of the posts suggest that you will get better sound out of a HT system if you relieve the front, center and surround speakers of the non-directional sound. The suggestion is that the amplifier for these speakers will produce a higher quality sound for the directional frequencies with out the burden of amplifying frequencies under 80hz. If you have an amplifier that has enough power to drive the speakers to reference level (75 or 85 db) with little effort, does this still hold true? If so, is there any negative effect of having two speakers produce the exact same sound for these low frequencies?

[Pete H]

A couple of weeks ago I drug out the Cornscala's and played with them and one of my subs along with a backup Sony receiver I had laying around. Much to my surprise when the Cornscala's were set to small and the crossover was dialed in on the sub, the difference was amazing. The small setting was much better and the RSW 15 became seamless with all music. The only reason I even tried this was I had never even played anything through this Sony that I was going through the manual trying to get a handle on the menu system that I just flipped them to small to make sure it was working and I'm glad I did because I would have never set the Corns to small. That said, my RF35's, RB5's or 61's set to small with the sub doing the same duty are going to sound like the Corns at all, so I'm of the camp stating that I would still buy the 7's because those with a well placed quality sub are wonderful too and that's my HT and audio set up in the man cave at the moment. JMO