RF-7II Owners Thread

[Zen Traveler]

Okay then. I'm not sure what my post has to do with your post?

But, FWIW here's the 4810 with 7 channels driven: 36 wpc.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-4810ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

MyTHX Ultra II AVR 4806 has better power supplies than the AVR-4810, but again you are talking about WPC and I contend that the Denon AVR-4810ci is rated to drive speakers with low impedance dips and could drive an RF-7 based HT in a small HT whereas the AVR-3312ci wouldn't do as well.

http://usa.denon.com/us/product/pages/Product-Detail.aspx?CatId=3d9614d1-8000-4106-ab91-8192242cab83&SubId=40b5820d-83c2-4e93-9909-60aae60e0bdd&ProductId=14c37b13-44c8-4d7b-9b5d-5316e646e7b7

Btw, Speakers will never be driven with all channels being driven to their maximum continuously and the AVR-4810 actually delivers above it's rated wattage with 2 channels being driven and 123.5 wpc with 5 channels being driven. []

[Zen Traveler]

Okay then. I'm not sure what my post has to do with your post?

My point was that the WPC isn't why his AVR can't drive RF-7s efficiently ... Fwiw, it's not about WPS but current available to cover the RF-7 impedance dips.

[cornfedksboy]

I have been really enjoying the RF-7II's. In stereo they are amazing. I demo'd them against DT ST's, GoldenEar Tritons's, Klipsch RF-82II, and Adam Pencils. These speakers really sound fantastic when listening to high quality music. Listening to lossless music really brings out the "crispness" of the sound.

In surround config, I think my receiver is lacking the power to run all 7 speakers wells. When things get loud, it seems like the center channel just seem to be losing power or something. It dips in volume and then comes back up again.

The Denon Avr-3312 is supposed to have 7 channel 125 watt power, so I am not sure whats happening. My local dealer is awaiting his shipment of Denon Avr-4311 to come in and will allow me to upgrade to it. Hopefully it will work better.

I also want to say thank you to Mike @ acousticsounddesign I got a great price on the whole set and unlike many online retailers, he answered all my email questions within 30 minutes. I was throughly impressed.

Don’t spend the money you have a nice avr already. Use that money on an amp. Avrs don’t have the juice to run 7 speakers they way you probably want. For the same money as an upgrade would cost you could get an xpa-3 to power your front 3 then use the avr for the rest.

Exactly!!! You have 125 watts per channel in stereo, but with 7 channels driven, your only getting about 30 watts to your speakers. There are other losses that can occur as well such as distortion, peak dynamics, and bass. Adding an XPA-3 will give you 200 wpc on the front three all the time and allow the receiver to run the rear 4 at about 100 wpc (estimate). Using a non-audiophile receiver to power 7 channels at any real volume will generally be a disappointment.

TDK,

I get what you are saying, in fact, I was trying to say the same thing..."there are other losses that can occur...," though I didn't specifically mention impedence. Why are you taking a partial quote, which is true, and twisting it to make it sound like I'm disagreeing with you? I don't disagree with you. I simply made a true statement. That's why I don't understand where you are coming from. My post is not in disagreement with your post, yet you quote it as if it were.

[cornfedksboy]

Okay then. I'm not sure what my post has to do with your post?

But, FWIW here's the 4810 with 7 channels driven: 36 wpc.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-4810ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

MyTHX Ultra II AVR 4806 has better power supplies than the AVR-4810, but again you are talking about WPC and I contend that the Denon AVR-4810ci is rated to drive speakers with low impedance dips and could drive an RF-7 based HT in a small HT whereas the AVR-3312ci wouldn't do as well.

http://usa.denon.com/us/product/pages/Product-Detail.aspx?CatId=3d9614d1-8000-4106-ab91-8192242cab83&SubId=40b5820d-83c2-4e93-9909-60aae60e0bdd&ProductId=14c37b13-44c8-4d7b-9b5d-5316e646e7b7

Btw, Speakers will never be driven with all channels being driven to their maximum continuously and the AVR-4810 actually delivers above it's rated wattage with 2 channels being driven and 123.5 wpc with 5 channels being driven.

I wasn't talking about your AVR. You questioned why I would state that receivers have about 30 wpc with all channels driven. I pulled up an easy to find Denon bench test and it said 36 wpc. I agree that it is unlikely that one would max out all 7 speakers at once. I also agree that most AVRs do well with 2 channels driven.

[Rich_Guy]

I also agree that most AVRs do well with 2 channels driven.

Actually, while both 7 channel HT and 2 channel music both got a lot better when I made the move to external amplification, I think 2 channel music is where I really appreciate it the most, huge difference in sound quality.

[Zen Traveler]

TDK,

I get what you are saying, in fact, I was trying to say the same thing..."there are other losses that can occur...," though I didn't specifically mention impedence.

Because it is about impedance and not about watts per channel.

RF-7 can be driven to 101 dB @ 1 meter if the current is sufficient! []

Your initial example of putting all AVRs in the same catagory negates the fact that what makes them different IS the ability to drive speakers that have lower impedance (or dips as the RF-7s). My guess is that there are tube amps that can drive RF-7s that only have 30 watts (or less) but can deliver current down to 2.8 Ohms. I can't really make it any clearer...My response to your initial post was that Watts Per Channel is not a good measuring device if a power source can drive an RF-7 HT, unless you are talking about only adding an external amp...Then it's safe to say that any 200 wpc can drive an RF-7 HT because most, if not all are rated down to at least 4 Ohms.

[cornfedksboy]

I also agree that most AVRs do well with 2 channels driven.

Actually, while both 7 channel HT and 2 channel music both got a lot better when I made the move to external amplification, I think 2 channel music is where I really appreciate it the most, huge difference in sound quality.

I noticed an improvement for 2 channel music as well. I was referring more to actual output versus specs with 2 channels.

[cornfedksboy]

Yep, if you read my first post I was talking about adding an external amp when using 7 channels, not about driving RF-7s specifically. The OP that I replied to noticed a weakness in his center with 7 channels driven, not his RF-7s in stereo mode. I agreed with the suggestion of an external amp to boost power rather than upgrading his receiver...so was that in someway incorrect?

[Zen Traveler]

I don't wish to beat a dead horse and this will be my final post on the subject....Your response that an external amp could help the OP was correct but stating " your only getting about 30 watts to your speakers" (in multichannel mode) is not factually correct...it's more than likely twice that if not closer to the Denon specs on most material with the RF-7s being driven...What makes them start to sound bad at higher volumes isn't the watts but the inability of the power supplies to provided enough current to cover the impedance dips of the RF-7s.

Exactly!!! You have 125 watts per channel in stereo, but with 7 channels driven, your only getting about 30 watts to your speakers...

Just as 125 watts could be an overstatement, could 30 watts per channel with all channels driven also be an understatement? Do you have a Benchmark results for the Denon AVR-3312?

EDIT: Fwiw, my response to you was to clear up the confusion between Watts per Channel and Impedance, with the latter being why most people have problems driving RF-7s in multichannel configurations with lower-end AVRs..The reason I brought up my 140 wpc AVR is because it CAN cover the dips in my less than 2,000 cu ft HT.

[BluBitRates]

i think you need an external amp tkd[Y]

[Tobias]

I'm a little confused... I have a Denon 3311ci and the RF-7II of course, and I'm planning to add a XPA-2 for better and louder stereo playback... would I get some real possitive difference or not?

Thanks!

[Rich_Guy]

I'm a little confused... I have a Denon 3311ci and the RF-7II of course, and I'm planning to add a XPA-2 for better and louder stereo playback... would I get some real possitive difference or not?

Thanks!

Most definitely. []

[A1UC]

Tobias

Yes you would its well worth the cost , I just did it

[Heritage_Head]

I don't wish to beat a dead horse and this will be my final post on the subject....Your response that an external amp could help the OP was correct but stating " your only getting about 30 watts to your speakers" (in multichannel mode) is not factually correct...it's more than likely twice that if not closer to the Denon specs on most material with the RF-7s being driven...What makes them start to sound bad at higher volumes isn't the watts but the inability of the power supplies to provided enough current to cover the impedance dips of the RF-7s.

Exactly!!! You have 125 watts per channel in stereo, but with 7 channels driven, your only getting about 30 watts to your speakers...

Just as 125 watts could be an overstatement, could 30 watts per channel with all channels driven also be an understatement? Do you have a Benchmark results for the Denon AVR-3312?

EDIT: Fwiw, my response to you was to clear up the confusion between Watts per Channel and Impedance, with the latter being why most people have problems driving RF-7s in multichannel configurations with lower-end AVRs..The reason I brought up my 140 wpc AVR is because it CAN cover the dips in my less than 2,000 cu ft HT.

The rf-7 aside driving any 7 descent size speakers is almost

always going to be a tuff task for probably 90% of avrs out there to reference

levels. With that said I don’t see a problem saying that most avrs are only

driving a small amount of watts when trying to explain why they run out of gas.

YES there’s more to it than just watts but it’s probably the easiest way to explain

it so anyone would understand it. I think corn did link a bench test for that avr

showing with 7channels its only 30 watts at 0.1% dist. (36watts at1%)

[Zen Traveler]

The rf-7 aside driving any 7 descent size speakers is almost always going to be a tuff task for probably 90% of avrs out there to reference levels. With that said I don’t see a problem saying that most avrs are only driving a small amount of watts when trying to explain why they run out of gas. YES there’s more to it than just watts but it’s probably the easiest way to explain it so anyone would understand it. I think corn did link a bench test for that avr showing with 7channels its only 30 watts at 0.1% dist. (36watts at1%)

My initial pose was correcting the misconception that all AVRs are the same. I agree with the above sentiment and the reason they run out of gas isn't because they don't have enough "watts," but because they don't deliver enough current to cover the impedance dips of the speakers they are driving.

[Zen Traveler]

I'm a little confused... I have a Denon 3311ci and the RF-7II of course, and I'm planning to add a XPA-2 for better and louder stereo playback... would I get some real possitive difference or not?

Thanks!

You more than likely could benefit from an external amp but I would buy an SPL meter and notice at what volume you normally listen and where that position is on the in dial.....If you want it louder then an amp will definitely be beneficial, if you play it at the same volume with the amp, you then need to level match the AVR with the amp and see if you notice a difference.

[Zen Traveler]

i think you need an external amp tkd

Not if you understood that my AVR delivers enough current to drive my Klipsch Library Home Theater listed below at the volumes that I have become accustomed and adding an amp would be a wast of money...Fwiw, the XPA-5 doesn't offer my RF-7s anything that my AVR 4806 doesn't provide. [Y]

[StephenM]

You more than likely could benefit from an external amp but I would buy an SPL meter and notice at what volume you normally listen and where that position is on the in dial.....If you want it louder then an amp will definitely be beneficial, if you play it at the same volume with the amp, you then need to level match the AVR with the amp and see if you notice a difference.

Just FYI, a voltmeter is a better choice in this instance. The garden variety SPL meter simply isn't accurate enough. http://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no38s-preamplifier-level-matching

[A1UC]

I guess the only way to find out would be to order a XPA-2

they have a 30 day return if your not happy , which Im sure

you will be . Also they have some XPA-2 for 699 now that

have been returned and carry a full 5 yr warranty .

[pite]

After reading through, HT Lab results for Denon AVR 4810, I tried to search for 2808ci since I was curious that why 28008ci is able to keep up with my 5.0 bi-amped setup. While, I couldn't find the review from HT Lab for 2808ci but did find for 3808ci and I think that answers the puzzle of why my Denon 2808ci is able to deliver the rated power/ampere for all 7 channels. Interestingly, Denon had listed '7 Channel Equal Power' for both 2808ci and 3808ci.

Ref: Denon 3808ci review from HT Lab, http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-3808ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures; 5ch 118.9w and 7ch 113.5w

Ref: Denon 3808ci - 7-Channel Equal Power feature that was used in various Denon AVR models in that year, as per Denon website, AVRs with this feature has "Amplifiers with 7-Channel Equal Power have built-in separate internal amplifiers to power each channel independently, thus allowing you to enjoy the same high power output capability per channel, giving a balanced and truly high-impact surround-sound environment but found for it's sibling which also employs EQ " . http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?Catid=f234eea1-3300-4537-8f59-f6cd2f3441d6&SubId=0&ProductId=8e41ebb0-b537-478f-acc2-b280a9ed34df

Quote: 7-Channel Equal Power: 7-Channel Equal Power is a feature used in various Denon amplifiers to connect 7 speakers independently so that separate power amps connected via pre-outs are not required. It allows you to connect the second 'surround back' speaker to complement the surround back speaker for 6.1, straight off the main amplifier without adding a power amplifier to support 7.1 surround formats. Amplifiers with 7-Channel Equal Power have built-in separate internal amplifiers to power each channel independently, thus allowing you to enjoy the same high power output capability per channel, giving a balanced and truly high-impact surround-sound environment but found for it's sibling which also employs EQ Unquote:

Ref: Denon 2808ci - 7-Channel Equal Power feature; same as 3808ci but 2808ci is 110w instead of 130w in the case of 3808ci.

So, when compared to HT Lab's 3808ci figures it could be potentially delivering between 90-100w rms for all 7 channels and that might be the answer to my puzzle, that why it's able to keep up with my bi-amped 5.0 set-up.

Never-the-less, doubling the power from 100w to 200w with pre-pro setup will certainly lead to 3dB higher SPL when compared to 100w SPL output.

Basically, I'm at peace for now, until the upgrade bug takes over that 'peace'! []