My jubilee setup

[DrWho]

You gonna make it to the pilgrimage, Brad? If you are, then maybe we can have a jam session on dialing in an active xover since I'm planning to bring down some XTi amplifiers (they have a built in active xover) and some fun speakers I built. I'm nowhere near as good as the guys from Klipsch that do it for a living, but there are some tricks I've learned along the way that I'm certain would improve upon where you're at currently. You can get into a state of the art measurement rig for ~$100 that would be invaluable to what you're trying to acheive. There's a steep learning curve to doing it this way, but it sounds like you might actually enjoy that process. []

[Arky]

Attaboy Bentz.

[bracurrie]

You gonna make it to the pilgrimage

DK, when is it? Website? I'll try. Seems like fun.

Recommendations for measurment rig? Rather not invent that.

Thanks [H]

Brad

[Coytee]

Rather not invent that

I hope this comes across with the smile I'm intending, if not, my apologies up front.

"what?"

Seems to me inventing a measuring rig would be far easier than the speaker system you are inventing!

With the measuring rig, the 'recipe' has already been created...it's just a matter of you putting it together and learning which button to push. This is one of the curious thoughts that I have about clone builders/buyers. The factory system is as simple as plug & play. A cloned system with a different top end is a function of creation & invention to get the right parts that might match with sonics and dispersion. Then you get to fool with various creative questions in the crossover area....which slope to use? which crossover point to use? Which PEQ's to use?

I got a chuckle out of your comment as it seems to me you are trying to invent something much harder than what he's suggesting you do.

Believe it or not, this is intended with a smile and my arm around you much like I would my best friend while giving him fun grief on something.

[jacksonbart]

bracurrie - becareful of your earlobs around Coytee, just ask Amy

[DrWho]

Seems to me inventing a measuring rig would be far easier than the speaker system you are inventing!

Haha, I totally agree...and one of the craziest things that has come out of my own personal measuring is a realization for just how elegant the driver and design choices Klipsch as a company makes. Implementation of the components is probably 90% of the sonic puzzle, so it's not hard for systems at 10% the cost to sound better when they're fully engineered.

[DrWho]

You gonna make it to the pilgrimage

DK, when is it? Website? I'll try. Seems like fun.

Recommendations for measurment rig? Rather not invent that.

Thanks

Brad

http://www.klipsch.com/pilgrimage/

For measurement rig, start with a google search for Room EQ Wizard.

[psg]

My priorities are as follows:

1 - intergrating a sub to make up for jub limitations trying for as much of that last 10 to 20hz as practical. (May not be practical)

Then you'll likely eventually get away from direct-radiating subs like the one you are using. I'm sure it could be sold for the amount it would cost to build a horn-loaded sub that would blend in seemlessly with your horn-loaded bass bin. I use a Tuba HT and it blends in seemlesly while I could never get a Hsu sub dialed in quite right. Also consider the Danley DTS-10 kit, and Lilmike's Cinema F-20

[psg]

You gonna make it to the pilgrimage

DK, when is it? Website? I'll try. Seems like fun.
Recommendations for measurment rig? Rather not invent that.
Thanks
Brad

http://www.klipsch.com/pilgrimage/

For measurement rig, start with a google search for Room EQ Wizard.

I second that REW recommendation.

[Deang]

A cloned bottom section that is not identical in every way will probably have aberrations in FR and possibly slightly higher distortion -- but will undoubtably still crush a Klipschorn bass bin. It would have to be a very bad build not to do so. Aberrations in FR due to deviations in the build will pale in comparison to the effects on the FR due to the room. I see the top horn as being the bigger issue, and in that regard I agree with everything Tom has said in this thread. I would read his posts again and make an attempt to learn something about the issues he addressed.

I don't like the flying horns. It may look cool, but you're creating a lot of problems by doing that. If you had a means to measure, I think you'd be surprised at what your ears are telling you "sounds good"! I absolutely agree with those who are telling you to get them things off the wheels, and as close to the back wall as possible. Corners would be best, but if you don't have them, well, you can only do what you can do. Bring the horns down, put them on the bins, and start experimenting with their positioning. If you can't find a way to make it sound good, then there is something wrong with the horn build. BEC has a very affordable top section for these things, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to go in that direction if necessary.

If I ever get into the financial position of being able to do this again, I would go with a "close enough" build, which would leave more money left over for higher quality compression drivers and gear. Three-way would be extremely tempting, especially since it simplifies crossover design (passive filters flat out sound better to me).

You'll need some serious subbage to keep up with these things, a single Sunfire ain't going to get it. I would go in Bill's direction.

[Marvel]

Three-way would be extremely tempting, especially since it simplifies crossover design (passive filters flat out sound better to me).

Nice to hear someone else say that... []

Hope you are doing well, Dean. Haven't seen you around for a while.

Bruce

[bracurrie]

I don't like the flying horns. It may look cool, but you're creating a lot of problems by doing that.

I have dropped the horns to the top of the cab and aligned the front edge of the horn with the front edge of the bass cab. I am using a 6ms delay for the tweeter but it doesn't seem to have a listening difference. That could be because the slopes at crossover are so steep. There was a very noticable improvement with the imageing as it now sounds like a wall of sound vs localized left and right points. While I haven;t climbed the curve on room problems yet, I would like to do that before I chuck the HF setup.

BEC has a very affordable top section for these things,

BEC and I talked about a next step that would involve Faital LTH 142 horn with Faital HF 140 drivers. But the jury is still out on my existing setup.

get them things off the wheels,

Just how would that impact the sound? Couldn't the EQ correct whatever impact the added height would bring?

I removed my AR preamp to have it refurbed and the Carver SS pre I have in there now isn't what I want to use to evaluate anything. What a diffrence.

You'll need some serious subbage to keep up with these things, a single Sunfire ain't going to get it.

My experiance has been that the Sunfire holds its own at the volumes I am listening to regularly. I could put the Sunfire in a corner per manufacturer recommendation.

DeanG, thanks for the input.

All the best

Brad

[Blvdre]

...and you can still use passives if you decide on a two-way set-up. They just need to have the appropriate compensation designed into the filter circuit.

[Islander]

I have dropped the horns to the top of the cab and aligned the front edge of the horn with the front edge of the bass cab. I am using a 6ms delay for the tweeter but it doesn't seem to have a listening difference.

Time-aligning the tweeters and woofers does improve the sound, but it's not obvious with all pieces of music. I find the improvement to be most noticeable if you're listening to a tune where the bass and treble instruments or the bass and vocals are keeping a beat together.

[Deang]

...and you can still use passives if you decide on a two-way set-up. They just need to have the appropriate compensation designed into the filter circuit.

Not an easy feat without some good modeling software and measuring equipment.

[bracurrie]

Took these to document settings, but I thought y'all might enjoy them. I am pleased with where I am now, but I am sure it could be better.

[DrWho]

FWIW, the dbx driverack pro auto EQ section leaves a lot to be desired when compared against a manual solution. i've used it several times in outdoor concert settings (where room acoustics don't complicate the automation) and have always preferred no EQ over what it does. Also, trying to dial in a xover by ear or with some automated tool is like trying to balance a checkbook by rolling dice until everything adds up.

[jwc]

"balance a checkbook by rolling dice until everything adds up"

Hmm....my wife does that all the time. She tells me it works.

[bracurrie]

FWIW, the dbx driverack pro auto EQ section leaves a lot to be desired when compared against a manual solution.

It's all I've got for now. I agree on the manual solution having much more potential. TBS its amazing how close the autoEQ gets it, but you have to manually adjust gain levels until the amount of correction is reduced to as little as possible. It would also help if I attacked the acoustic problems of the room. When I get the tools I will us the manual method.

trying to dial in a xover by ear or with some automated tool

Not using the tool to set crossover. BEC said his jub clone cab (built by same person) using identical drivers were tested and there was a drop at 500hz or so and he took that as a cue to crossover there. Likewise on the bottom end the cab drops at approximately 35-40 so I use that point to bring the sub in. The steepness of the points led to the autoEQ correcting more evenly. But BEC said to use 6b slope from the jub cab and 12 db to the tweeter. It sounds like you have a great deal more experience and knowledge than I. So what is your experience with slopes?

BTW I would love to eventually convert to a passive setup eventually so I could use a single amp and maybe get a sweet sounding 10 watt or so tube setup.

Brad

[Blvdre]

...and you can still use passives if you decide on a two-way set-up. They just need to have the appropriate compensation designed into the filter circuit.

Not an easy feat without some good modeling software and measuring equipment.

Yes, too true (many like PCD, and it's free if you already have excel). I would add that the same is necessary for a three way network as well.