Jubilee, 402, digital, CD....comments

[mark1101]

Yes, that would be easy to do an active system. Otherwise, you would need to come up with some passive nets. PITA in my opinion for those type of speaker components. I would go active.

[Rudy81]

From time to time I see some who have heard a K402 horn say that: "It just doesn't image well for me".

Can the lack of time alignment in a speaker produce an experience that does resemble "imaging"? We have heard ALK discuss this time and again that at low volumes this mis-alignment seems to produce a nice "ambience". Conversely as the volume goes up, it begins to become a blaring mess of non-clarity as multiple drivers spew the same sounds but at different times.

mark1101....guilty as charged. However, the time alignment thing is not an issue for me. My system is time aligned as well as say the Oris system with Jub clones I heard.

My personal experience with the K402 and the various drivers they had has always provided the same impression. That is, in the sweetspot I did not perceive a clearly defined image and precise instrument localization within the soundstage. I'm sure it is me, since many of you can hear these things with the K402. I normally look for a clearly defined central image for a vocalist (if mixed that way) and precise instrument localization in the soundstage. I learned to use that as a basic characteristic of a good home system.

For example, when presenting a center stage singer, the K402 left me with the impression that I was in a concert hall with the voice coming from all directions. Whereas I look for a clearly defined image that makes it feel like the singer is right in front of me in a much smaller venue. To me, the K402 always made it seem like the sound was coming from all directions and that is what I call lack of imaging.....much like a sound reinforcement system in a very large concert.

As I have said, I see this as my issue and not as a problem with the horn, obviously it is a huge success. Perhaps the problem is that I am using the wrong method to judge a system. Up until recently, I was using a CD horn in my system, but have moved on to a round tractrix system that appeals to my listening experience.

My interest in this issue is borne from the thought that many of you are much better versed in stereo evaluation, so I keep trying to understand the disparity in my perceptions.

[jwc]

Hey JC, I have KPT-904,s and have been thinking about putting the 402 horns on top of them. I have the 510 horns that came with them. Do you think it is possible to turn them into a 3-way.

I have had The KPT-904s in my house with the K510 and the K402 seperately....not together. I don't see why you couldn't use both. Just build a baffle and mount them like klipsch does. You could go active three way....or use a passive ESN5800 on the top section and biamp. Actually.....there is an ESN passive that will work for that bass bin....I would rather not cloud up the thread with that info though...

then just add a little EQ for the top section like I did.

jc

[davis419b]

Thanks JC !

[Don Richard]

Can the lack of time alignment in a speaker produce an experience that does resemble "imaging"?

Whenever two loudspeaker sound sources reproduce the same sound and those sounds are separated in time polar lobing will occur. Instead of one forward lobe there will be a main lobe surrounded by side lobes. This can have the effect of increasing the width of the polar pattern, in the region of crossover overlap. This effect is unpredictable, however, depending heavily on room interactions.

[Chris A]

From time to time I see some who have heard a K402 horn say that: "It just doesn't image well for me".

My experience is that the room that you listen to them in is still very important: the K-402 is able to keep its SPL polars controlled down to about 300 Hz or below - something that no other speaker that I know of can do. However, the room can still sabotage the listening experience if near-field reflectors are present--anything between the speakers and ceiling/floor reflections (incl. low ceilings). It's just that the K-402's undesirable polars that energize the surrounding floor/ceiling and close-by objects are way down in SPL relative to other midrange horns operating in the 400-2000 Hz band.

You still need to absorb or diffract near-field reflections in the front of the room (...I went with absorption...) in order to hear the K-402's imaging performance. Unfortunately, when Rudy was over to my place some time back, the room's reflections were very strong and therefore masked the stereo imaging performance. It was that experience that caused me to start looking for the problem and to address it. I talked with Roy- at which point he related the "clear air between the speakers" discussion to me. I put up some absorbing material, and voila! Instant imaging...

I believe that I've addressed that problem since that time. Imaging is amazing now - in depth, width, and focus. It's like you can reach out and touch the performer. For example, Norah Jones' Not Too Late opening number - "Wish I Could" is about as real as you can get...like you can reach out and touch the singer and left/right instruments. It also made the whole experience more "listenable" and the listening sweet spot wider by about a factor of 3 or more. My wife commented that when I covered up the center flat screen with a quilt (mounted high on the wall- see profile), the performers in the opposite channel speaker became audible, whereas before she heard only right channel. That's a shift of about 3 feet in sweet spot width by covering up the flat screen in addition to the rest of the masonry and objects between the speakers.

Amazing when you think about it...the Precedence Effect in action.

Chris

[Rudy81]

Chris, I totally agree that the room a system is in can have a tremendous effect on one perceives for a sound field. Perhaps if you have Don over sometime, I might invite myself to listen again. I really like your system and did not get to hear the SPUDS integrated with the system at the time. I am curious as to how they integrate with your Jub bass bins as well. I use my TH clones for my LFE channel exclusively.

IIRC, when I visited Hope last year, Roy's system had very little absorption as well. Also, I suspect that having the Jubs tight in the corners is great for bass loading, but reduces the soundstage. When I got away from the Khorns I had and moved my mains away from the corners, my soundstage blossomed and widened. I'm searching for just the right positioning to have the best imaging and soundstage I can muster. With the two RSW-15s providing very robust bass from 20-50Hz, I am not in need of corner loading the DBBs.

My room has heavy absorption in the front of the room for both HF and LF. The back of the room has a huge diffuser and bass traps in the corners. I am very pleased with the soundfield I get in that room, albeit with a system totally different than yours. I'm still trying to locate a reasonably priced set of TADs for my setup since I consider them about the best one can do for a two way setup. For now, I am working with the HF-200 HF drivers in my horns.

[mikebse2a3]

For example, when presenting a center stage singer, the K402 left me with the impression that I was in a concert hall with the voice coming from all directions. Whereas I look for a clearly defined image that makes it feel like the singer is right in front of me in a much smaller venue. To me, the K402 always made it seem like the sound was coming from all directions and that is what I call lack of imaging.....much like a sound reinforcement system in a very large concert.

Rudy this description is like a big red flag saying the room's acoustics / loudspeaker location / listener's location are far from optimized and not condusive for imaging development.

Sounds like Chris has solved alot of the issues that was causing this from his most recent description of his system's imaging capabilities.

I think your very correct to expect very good imaging from any high performance loudspeaker system as long as the room's acoustics and system's setup is also properly done. If Khorns or Jub/K402 or most klipsch systems aren't presenting a good image then the room's acoustics and system setup need to be seriously investigated.

One comment/observation for you that is if you heard the Jub/K402 in the room next to the lab in Hope and they were setup on the short wall (where the double doors are with sonex foam on them) were Roy usually demo's them for people then know Roy has mentioned in the past to me that this setup location isn't optimized for imaging. This room's orginal setup and treatment's (absorption and polycylinders) were arranged for best results with KHorns on the long wall and most likely where the Jubs would image much better also. Roy from what I gather uses this room/setup to do performance comparisons of system changes and these are mostly done in mono for the most accurate way to make judgement of the changes he is comparing. Roy has extensively maped the room and uses these two corners for there performance closeness and he even has a favorite spot(looks like a pee spot[]) were he likes to listen from.

One other observation that confirms for me when I'm getting the imaging capabilities of my setup optimized is, I've noticed over the years when I have used La Scalas, Belles, Klipschorns and now Jubs that on very good recordings the loudspeakers themselves appear to be silent with all the images floating around, between and behind them. The images themselves seem to be projecting the sound and not the loudspeakers.

mike tn

[Chris A]

Rudy this description is like a big red flag saying the room's acoustics / loudspeaker location / listener's location are far from optimized and not conducive for imaging development.

I agree that there were imaging issues, but these were brought about by essentially one misconception that I was not aware of at the time - that the Jubilees should always be placed into room corners (like the Khorn design) in order to achieve extended lf performance, regardless of what's between them that reflect sound (even a small intrusion of a few inches--like brick masonry).

However I did not mean to imply that the room has significant acoustics issues, or that the listening position was wrong, or that the loudspeakers were in a wrong area of the room. This isn't the case--so hold on pushing that "big red button"...

I fully addressed the imaging issue above by moving the Jubs out of their corners by about a foot and a half (back-filled with SPUD subs), and adding Auralex Sonofiber panels (about 16 panels) to the areas that reflect sound between the speakers and on the immediate side walls next to the K-402s. Having the SPUDs in the same corners FACILITATED the resolution of the issue-synergistically, I might add. I'd recommend this technique to any Jubilee owner--because it decouples the Jubilee lf performance using room corners from K-402 imaging placement of the Jubs. I think it's a creative solution that works well.

My comments about this subject were only meant to be a "heads up" for folks here trying to understand the comments about K-402 imaging, or others that may be thinking about investing in them.

The message is simple: pay attention to early reflections. That's it: total story. No disasters... []

Chris

[mikebse2a3]

Chris you've taken what I said wrong or maybe I just wasn't good at getting my point across. What I was trying to point out wasn't about your situation in particular but instead that if Rudy or anyone hears a good system exhibiting the sound qualities Rudy described then those areas are needing to be investigated for their contributions to the problems causing imaging to be masked/distorted.

mike tn

[Rudy81]

Gents, just to be clear. I am in no way putting down anyone's system. I actually have always approached these issues from the standpoint that I am missing something or don't know how to properly evaluate a system. I am always striving to learn as much as possible from you guys and other sources. I have read the Master Handbook of Acoustics several times trying to really learn how to treat a room properly. Same goes for other books I have on learning how to evaluate a system and learning the terms commonly used in acoustic circles. The last few years I have learned a ton from you guys on active filtering, horns and speaker building. I brought this issue up, trying once again to figure out what I 'missed' in listening to the various Jubilee systems I have heard.

Over the years, I have owned all the Heritage series speakers and they all imaged well. My Khorns did particularly well when I made false corners and moved them away from the corners in my room. I sold my Khorns because the bass was not what I preferred, but I did enjoy the heck out of them.

I not only listen for imaging, but also for the depth and breadth of the soundstage. My problem has been that I had such great expectations for the Jubilees and just didn't hear what I expected.

The issues mentioned about Roy's setup on the short wall make total sense. In fact, last year the Jubs were tight in the corners along the short wall. The bass production spoke for itself, but the HF section left me perplexed. I did note the poly cylinders were along the long wall and figured that at one time, speakers were set up on that wall.

I agree that when speakers are set up properly in a good room, you get the sense that the sound is not localized on the two main speakers. It tends to fill the space with a realistic soundstage producing excellent imaging. Additionally, on some systems I find that with a good recordings different instruments are placed in specific locations within that soundstage. On some systems, I hear instruments outside of the confines of the speakers, producing a very lifelike sensation. I am of the opinion that much more emphasis should be placed on the room and its acoustic properties than we do. Most of us tend to focus on the crossovers, drivers, horns etc. and tend to ignore the space surrounding the sound system. Of course, many do not have dedicated listening rooms and are thus limited in the type of treatments that can be used.

I keep reading all the great comments about the Jubilee system and so I keep trying to have that experience with those systems.

[dtel]

Great thread [Y]

[dtel]

I always wonder about this. I thought the same thing the first few times I heard the Jubs and attributed this to the time alignment and digital processing. I wonder if this is what others may be experiencing.

I can clearly hear "smear" (lack of time alignment....blurriness) on my corns and lascalas. It becomes much more noticable when I A/B with my time aligned MCM system. The clarity of the MCM is far superior.

Can the lack of time alignment in a speaker produce an experience that does resemble "imaging"? We have heard ALK discuss this time and again that at low volumes this mis-alignment seems to produce a nice "ambience". Conversely as the volume goes up, it begins to become a blaring mess of non-clarity as multiple drivers spew the same sounds but at different times.

You could be right about time aliging causing the difference but also like you said right before that, "digital processing". A big part of that may be the way the active setup does with the crossover points as far as sending less of the same signal to different drivers, steeper crossovers, cutting down on some of that smear ?

[dtel]

On some systems, I hear instruments outside of the confines of the speakers, producing a very lifelike sensation.

I heard that a while back, I can't remember what I was listening to but there was a sound like a chime or triangle almost directly to the left and a little forward from where I was setting, but much closer to me and way to the left of the speaker.

It caught me so much by surprise I turned left to see what caused it and realized it had to be in the recording because I was alone, I remember it so well because it was a little scary to tell the truth. I sat there thinking did I really hear that !

I need to go back and see if I can find it again.

[Islander]

One thing I noticed right after doing the JubScala conversion was that I could tell right away if the drummer had two bass drums, and could tell exactly where they were.

Some songs on the Rickie Lee Jones record (her first, self-titled, LP or CD) feature a number of drums and drummers at various locations and distances, and it's an interesting sensation to be able to place them all in space.

[Chris A]

Chris you've taken what I said wrong or maybe I just wasn't good at getting my point across. What I was trying to point out wasn't about your situation in particular...

No worries, Mike.

Chris

[Chris A]

One thing I noticed right after doing the JubScala conversion was that I could tell right away if the drummer had two bass drums, and could tell exactly where they were.

Pat,

Have you posted a picture of your setup anywhere (i.e., both speakers in the same shot)? I'm trying to form a mental picture of rooms and speaker placements of those that own K-510s and K-402s. What I've seen thus far is that most folks do not have much in the center between the speakers--and if they do, they have pulled the speakers into the room a bit. This of course kills lf response from the corner effect and makes the resulting lf response more irregular. It's clearly a trade.

I also have three Auralex panels stacked vertically on the side walls along the exit plane of the K-402/Jub bass bin mouths (...I'll try to post a picture of the new setup when I get home...). The audible effect of these are to slightly narrow the "Apparently Source Width" (ASW) of the Jubilees, but also to coalesce and focus the entire soundstage image, and to improve "listenability" (i.e., some material sounds a bit confused and "busy" without those side panels, but sounds much smoother with them placed on the side walls). The panels are 2' x 2' (61 x 61 cm), so the total height is 6' (1.83 m) - which is about the height of the top of the K-402s. They do not absorb much below ~150 Hz.

"Why would you put absorbers there?" When I originally pulled the Jubs out of their corners in both directions (front wall and side walls), I dramatically increased imaging (note that the back of the Jubs form a false corner with the SPUDs which are up against the front wall, which pushes the Jubs forward into the room about 18", and I used bass traps along the side walls to move the Jubs inward about 7"--thus filling the holes made in moving the Jubs).

When I recently placed the panels on the front wall, my wife wished to improve the WAF a bit, so I removed the sandwich bass traps between side walls and Jubs and pushed the Jubs out to the side walls. What I got was decreased imaging but wider soundstage when I did this--even while toed-in to the listening position. When I added the three panels on each side - I got my imaging back plus got to retain a wider soundstage than the original placement and enjoy improved L-R locational cues within that soundstage. I also get slightly better lf Jub extension/smoothness because the bass bins are once again in full "corners": aligned with the side walls, and backed up by the SPUDs at their rear.

Of course, all this violates the rule of thumb..."don't use absorption in the room - use diffusion, especially on the front wall". Heresy...I know. [8-)]

Chris

[jwc]

Dtel is using a recipe that includes an mwm, k 402, k 69, and dx 38. Official settings per Roy.

[Marvel]

On some systems, I hear instruments outside of the confines of the speakers, producing a very lifelike sensation.

I've had that happen with my La Scalas. My LS are only slightly modified, and I will attribute the great imaging to the room layout. It has since been changed, to make the room more useful for other things, but it was really magical. They were basically five feet from the back wall with nothing in between them left to right.

Bruce

[dtel]

Dtel is using a recipe that includes an mwm, k 402, k 69, and dx 38. Official settings per Roy.

Yep I still use Roy's settings, although I did connect the DX to a laptop and play with a separate program to have a separate setting and to learn how to use it. I was looking for a different setting to use when playing quietly, kind of like a little boost in the mid and high frequencies, lows are fine with the spud set at 40 Hz and below. I need to play with it more I went a little to far last time and need to back down some of the settings.

I need to one day get a mic and check the room and go from there. Thanks JWC and Mark for helping me get the 402/k69 and the DX.