jwc Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 This is a long message. Long time coming. I don't post as much anymore. I still come to the forum daily though. Couple of disclaimers: I don't have golden ears....I have an opinion that isn't professional by any means.....I make no claims that what I own or what I've owned is the best. I have great Klipsch buddies with systems that may not be like mine and respect their opinion eventhough might be different that mine. All comments are experience with music listening.....NOT HT. There is a huge amount of bickering about the "jubilee systems" which would include CD controversy, digital processing controversy, clone contoversy and compression drivers that mate with the CD horns. I have had the EvDx 38, behringer and DBX pro rack. I've had 402's with the K1133, Tad 4002, and BMC 2" coaxial. K510's with K69's twice. Also Jubelike clones. Also ALK ESN for the jubelike clones and active analog and EQ. I've owned the XTI. I've heard the K402 and K510 as mid and tweet as offered by Klipsch Cinema line. The above have been heard in my house. The jubilee "home system" that is two way in my opinion is the best way to go about a two way horn loaded system if you don't want a sub. For music this is fine....I have a knack for lots of bass with music. The jubilee...great but at times lacking for my taste on the low end. So if I integrate a sub...then I had to ask myself.....What am I doing here.....almost a waste to set all this up and throw in a sub. There are other options for an LF section if I'm gonna throw in a sub anyway. This is why I don't currently run the jube bass bin. Again.....if I listened to material without low end challenges or just my taste for not as much bass..... then jube would be right on for me. I'm still a fan for supporting Klipsch to sell these and for PWK's/Roy's efforts. Awesome product. Digital processing. I don't currently have one. I have two systems with K402s and one of them with an addition K510's as tweets. Both of these systems have Ashly active analog XO's with analog active EQ. I'm happy with these. The EvDx38 is good. No noise.....good sonics. I once has my LS II's with an all modern MAC system and all XLR connections. For giggles....I would put the EV in the chain. Not adding any EQ or any other changes....ran it flat. I could tell a difference prettyeasily in my room. It does something to the High end that I can't describe. Everything else sounded the same. I can't really describe that high frequency change. "Hi Fi"? It wasn't harsh at all and was musical. It was diiferent though. At some point...I want to try another processor...like Ashly digital or DBX digital (4800). This leads me to my next point.....I had TADs on the K402 using the EV. That high frequency sound I kept hearing was bugging me. It could have just been in my head at that point. The passive available from Roy for the TAD has a bunch of parts. I have built a lot of passives....and I was thinking of doing one...then gave up on the idea. Sold the EV and the TADS. Was this a bad move....I don't know. BTW......there are no flaws on my K402's or K510's.... The K69 as a two way driver is not my cup of tea. I first heard it at Hope with a passive in 2006. That was the first time Id heard the Jube. I was in love with the bass bin but not the K69/K402. This is when Coytee and MikeTN bought there jube systems after that. I was inline to do the same then with them.......but chicken out....reason being...the top section had me scared. I would have been uncomfortable just ordering the bass bins and put something else on top....with the fear of making Roy mad. I later built clonelikes and put an Altec horn on top. I later brought this up with Roy in joking....he was cool with it and told me I shouldn't have worried about my reservation with ordering the bass bin and doing something else. He really was nice about it.....in fact guys....Roy is pretty cool to talk to anyway. Total hoot if you ask me. For those who own K69's on the K402. Please don't blast me about this. Remember...just my opinion...not gospel. So right now I use K402's/K1133 with a K510/K69 in one system and a K402/BMS coaxial in another. I use an ESN5800 for the top section of mid and tweet and the BMS factory crossover for the coaxial. The bottom sections aren't jubes. So yes......I'm not using a "recipe" which is taking a chance for setup errors. The factory top section with the K402 and K501 is hats off my best setup EVER. I use them with a custom tractrix dual 12" K31's bass bin and a pair klipsch KPT 684 subs. Yes I have to EQ but very little. I'm using just two parametric EQ settings for that system. I haven't touched the settings in over 1 year.....which is a rare thing for me (for those who know me). I have changed any of the electronics either. Maybe I got lucky. So have I settled on CD horns? I love these by Klipsch. The K402 is big and ugly. I would say my favorite product by Klipsch is the K402. I wouldn't have said that 4-5 years ago. Maybe that had something to do with the K69. Anyway.....Maybe someone might find my experience helpful. I might regret posting this or lets just see if the thread gets axed. Happy listening. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 JC's system is the only one I have heard that I like better than what I am running now.......ha ha. I don't mean that with any negativity toward anyone else's stuff or with any cockiness. I have a ton of respect for the systems put together by members here and others as well. But it's true. You guys would have to hear JC's setup to know what I mean. Just an incredible powerhouse combo very well thought out and executed, to produce the finest detail and yet pound the heck out of you at the same time. The 510s on top and the 684 subs on bottom make the difference in my opinion as well as the very important custom built straight tractrix horns. We both have Mac power on top and some big QSC pro amps for the bottom end. Yet my system is not in this system's league. A pair of 684 subs in a house is a very sick thing. The walls in JC's basement are all coming apart. Everytime I go there he points it out and it's easy to see and hear when the system plays. I also usually leave with a headache........but not from fatigue...........but from urban club volume levels. Just nuts what that system can do. The K402 horn is my favorite Klipsch product. Can be used in many different systems..........and just my opinion, but it is Klipsch's best sounding HF horn no matter the driver. I do prefer the TAD 4002s to the K-69. But Roy has really optimized teh K-69 settings and it is actually tough to beat. I will also state that no matter the bass bin, I now prefer to have subs. I didn't always feel that way. But since I got into the MCM Grand systems, I like subs a lot more now. Not HT subs, music subs. I have heard all the Klipsch bass bins and the Jub is probably my favorite all around. Engineering proof has shown it to be the best folded horn of the bunch. But if I had them, I would still have subs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Hearing JC's K402's/K1133 with a K510/K69 providing the top end was a revelation. We listened to lots of horns and driver combos with this system including my own but this K402's/K1133 with a K510/K69 combo was by far the best. I was really surprised. Wow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Anyway.....Maybe someone might find my experience helpful. Thanks for posting, JC. I'd wondered about the rationale for some of your "evolutions": your write-up answers some of those mysteries for me. Has anyone thought about these type of tweeters? They have magnesium diaphrams, alnico magnets, and what looks to be exponential horns with extended phase plugs. I wonder what their polars and distortion products (i.e., intermodulation) look like? They seem to have the bandpass and the sensitivity one would expect to pair with a K-402/TAD-4002 and cross above 7 KHz (per the data sheet recommendation). Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Has anyone thought about these type of tweeters? This would be in a three way, but I thought two way was better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 A very good two-way sounds better than a decent three-way and a very good three-way sounds better than a very good two-way. I preferred the sound of the three-way Jubilee over the two-way version when I heard them back to back in Hope in what seems like forever ago. The three-way configuration I believe used the same mid and HF horn/driver combination as JC's setup described above - I imagine that does sound pretty killer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 That Fostex tweeter will beam like a laser. A smooth power response is key for a good sounding loudspeaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Edited....lost my head and went OT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 That Fostex tweeter will beam like a laser. A smooth power response is key for a good sounding loudspeaker. DeanG, question for you. Many times those who know way more about speakers mention the 'beaming' issue quite a bit. My question is this. For a home system in a moderately sized room, is the beaming issue that critical? I know that polars are very important in commercial system where you have large spaces with large audiances. But, it seems to me that these effects are not as critical in a small room system where you effectively are generally only considering one listener in the sweet spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 edited...realised I was getting off topic in jwc's thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 Seti uses the jubelike clone and a non pro klipsch top section.....happy man. Mark1101 uses the K402 with the TAD but not with the Jube.....Happy man. I use the K402 and K510 w/o the Jube....Happy man. Cask05 uses the "recipe" for the Klipsch TAD-K402-Jube system and so does MikeTN......Happy too. So you see. There are options here. If you want to go full throttle all spec with the Jubilee "home system"....it is available....active...passive...TAD or K69. If you want to use portions of Roy's creations.......it is available. However, with the latter...be prepared to tinker a little to get it setup. It can be done. There are those here that would be happy to help you along with the Klipsch Jubilee, K402, K510. The bottom line...if you don't use the "recipe", it would be tough for you to ask Roy's for help. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 Photos coming.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 Stock MID Tweet as seen above with K1133 and K69,,,,K402....K510 Available Klipsch passive for behind the screen only......so using ALK ESN5800 and paramentric EQ. Active XO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 I'm sure the purist....wouldn't like this photo. But only 2 Parametric EQ in front of that ESN5800 and K402/K510. Tried other additional filters....just messed up the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 Please remember....I'm not saying this is the end of all audio here. But I'm very happy for over one year with this top section from Klipsch. Custom settings....but very simple in my opinion. Add in the 4K and take away in the 2K. The 402 is very strong ~1500Hz - ~2500Hz. Difficult to tame that where you want it. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 nice to see more of your setup jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 That Fostex tweeter will beam like a laser. A smooth power response is key for a good sounding loudspeaker. I finally found a plot of that tweeter: The question that comes to mind...what does a K77 do in a Khorn cabinet behind that baffle? The K-402 polar plots that Mike B. posted a month or so ago also looks pretty much the same... [:^)] Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blvdre Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 That Fostex tweeter will beam like a laser. A smooth power response is key for a good sounding loudspeaker. DeanG, question for you. Many times those who know way more about speakers mention the 'beaming' issue quite a bit. My question is this. For a home system in a moderately sized room, is the beaming issue that critical? I know that polars are very important in commercial system where you have large spaces with large audiances. But, it seems to me that these effects are not as critical in a small room system where you effectively are generally only considering one listener in the sweet spot. I know this was directed at Dean, but I'll take a crack at the basics. Yes, power response is also important in a home listening environment. Think of it this way; a large percentage of the sound at the listening position is reflected sound. Now consider the response of a speaker that beams. The farther you move off axis, the more attenuated the high end becomes. A portion of that imbalanced sound is being reflected back to the listening position, and is therefore part of the response you hear, even when listening on-axis. When using a constant directivity horn (which yields even power response), the off-axis response is much more balanced, so your reflected sound will be much closer to the on-axis response, yielding a more natural and correct overall response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Since we are talking about the 402 I'd like to offer a comment and see what comes of it. From time to time I see some who have heard a K402 horn say that: "It just doesn't image well for me". I always wonder about this. I thought the same thing the first few times I heard the Jubs and attributed this to the time alignment and digital processing. I wonder if this is what others may be experiencing. I can clearly hear "smear" (lack of time alignment....blurriness) on my corns and lascalas. It becomes much more noticable when I A/B with my time aligned MCM system. The clarity of the MCM is far superior. Can the lack of time alignment in a speaker produce an experience that does resemble "imaging"? We have heard ALK discuss this time and again that at low volumes this mis-alignment seems to produce a nice "ambience". Conversely as the volume goes up, it begins to become a blaring mess of non-clarity as multiple drivers spew the same sounds but at different times. I will be the first to admit that my lascalas do "image" if that's what is really going on............I'm not exactly sure what it is I'm hearing that gives that sense of space and depth.............but gets to be "sonic mayhem" at loud volumes. It's almost like the "concert hall" DSP in my HT pre/pro. This is the sensation I'm trying to describe. The point is that I think I do understand these comments people make about the K402 and imaging as I do experience the differences from my other speakers with passive networks. It may be the entire speaker system and not just the K402. As I mentioned early on, I thought well "where is the image"? Now my perceptions are that my system is very close in character to a large sound reinforcement system with a very live and accurate / clear sound to it. I'm not caught up in any "DSP-like" performance that it may have or lack. I don't feel anything is missing............but I did have to get used to it. Comments from the crowd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davis419b Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Hey JC, I have KPT-904,s and have been thinking about putting the 402 horns on top of them. I have the 510 horns that came with them. Do you think it is possible to turn them into a 3-way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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