Set speakers large or small. RF7ii

[XxCowboyxX]

I'll be driving to Hope tomorrow to pick up my rf7ii (only a 30 min drive) and I am curious if I should set them to small or large on my reciever. I have rf7ii as mains rc 64ii center and rf52ii as rears. Seems a damn shame to set them all to small and just use my sub. What do y'all think?

[wuzzzer]

Try it both ways and see what you prefer. If you set them to large it will cut a lot of bass from your subwoofer. You might want to change it depending on what you're watching/listening to. For movies you might want to set them to small and music you might want to set them to large. A lot of it will depend on what subwoofer you have.

[willland]

Seems a *** shame to set them all to small and just use my sub. What do y'all think?

I think you answered your own question.

Seriously, try it both ways and experiment with crossover points. You may realize after much trial and error that your receiver better handles the power delivery with the 7ii's set to small with a lower crossover point than set to large. Play around a bit and you make the call.

Bill

[Quiet_Hollow]

No shame. Cinema's do it, so does proper live sound. There's good reason to do so when running a sub. Set 'em small.

[Fish]

I never understood 4ft tall 100 lb speakers set to small, it's obvious they are not.That said ,always try different settings.

[Quiet_Hollow]

I never understood 4ft tall 100 lb speakers set to small, it's obvious they are not.That said ,always try different settings.

Trying different settings won't cut it flying blind. It's all in the acoustics. The real solution unfortunately is not a 4ft tall 100 lb speaker, at least in the home. But if you happen to have one and want it play well with a sub [to take advantage of the response afforded by doing so] , you have to set it to "small" to command the receiver to use it's internal filters.

[Quiet_Hollow]

Duplicate post

[dtel]

I tried it with fortes a few times, I ended up setting them to small, it just sounded better. The bass was better, tighter and the overall sound was better.

But this was in our room with a standard receiver, but it can sound better set on small, I would guess depending on speakers, amps and the room setup............see what sounds best to you.

[Fish]

I never understood 4ft tall 100 lb speakers set to small, it's obvious they are not.That said ,always try different settings.

Trying different settings won't cut it flying blind. It's all in the acoustics. The real solution unfortunately is not a 4ft tall 100 lb speaker, at least in the home. But if you happen to have one and want it play well with a sub [to take advantage of the response afforded by doing so] , you have to set it to "small" to command the receiver to use it's internal filters.

It cuts it great for me, I set my room up the way I like.

[StephenM]

I never understood 4ft tall 100 lb speakers set to small, it's obvious they are not.That said ,always try different settings.

Several reasons:

1. Even RF-7s are not specified to cleanly reproduce a 20Hz signal at 105dB.

2. Presuming that the subwoofer(s) is of commensurate quality to the RF-7s, it is likely that it can produce low bass (<40Hz) with less distortion than RF-7s can. As an example, a SVS PB13-Ultra with the old BASH amplifier in 20Hz tune was tested to put out 110dB at 30Hz with 4% THD in 2 meter ground plane testing. How confident are you that RF-7s can do that?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/8150-svs-pb13-ultra-20-hz-tune.html

3. Audyssey MultEQ and MultEQ XT use much greater resolution filters on the subwoofer than they do on your main speakers. Setting your mains to small takes full advantage of those filters.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq

4. Referring to why THX specifies 80Hz:

Again, this goes back to acoustics: it is very difficult to get a similar low end response from five speakers spread out through a room, or even just three across the front of it, even if all the speakers are identical, because their different physical positions in the room are going to result in different acoustical loading (i.e., the bass response will not be the same from speaker to speaker). By summing all the bass in the sound track and sending it to a subwoofer, or set of subwoofers (all getting the same signal), the system's reproduction of bass from each channel will be uniform.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/feature-article-thx-1-2006-part-3.html

[Zen Traveler]

I'll be driving to Hope tomorrow to pick up my rf7ii (only a 30 min drive) and I am curious if I should set them to small or large on my reciever. I have rf7ii as mains rc 64ii center and rf52ii as rears. Seems a *** shame to set them all to small and just use my sub. What do y'all think?

It depends if you have a capable sub (or subs) that plays lower and can keep up with the RF-7s at higher SPLs...That being said, if you are going to be driving them with a mid range AVR you probably want to set them to Small and have a capable sub or you won't be getting the most out of your system. Fwiw, My RF-7s are awesome but they can't hit the lower notes as well as my dual RSW subs and crossing them at 60 hz (with aTHX ultra II AVR) is the sweet spot in my Klipsch Library Home Theater listed below.

[psg]

I never understood 4ft tall 100 lb speakers set to small, it's obvious they are not.That said ,always try different settings.

How about 180 lbs speakers?

I set my Klipschorns to small and crossing over at 40 to 80 Hz results in the same sound "quality" but I happen to even more even room response at 60 to 80 Hz.

[dtel]

I think one of the reasons mine sounds better on small is the bass is not coming from 6 places around the room, or at least the front 3. It made the bass less congested sounding, cleaner. It's not the fortes ll, because on large with just the front 2 playing the bass is very clear and I don't get the same effect.

DrWho told me to try this a few years ago and at first I thought a forte is not small it should be fine, but after trying it more than once, he was exactly right, in my case.

Even with unlimited power to each speaker it does not change much, it's more like frequency management, what driver/speaker does the best job, for your room.

It really has little to do with the actual size of the speaker, it's more about what frequencies are reproduced best by what driver/speaker for the room as a whole.

Also it sounded a little better in the midrange, maby less upper bass floating around the room? or could it be less of a load on the speaker which makes it do better without trying to reproduce the lowest it capable of ?

I don't know, I am not an engineer or trained in this in any way SO, I just go by my ears and ignore the physical size of the speaker.

IMO [:S]

[garyrc]

O.K., here's my question:

If I set my nominally 105 dB/1W/1M Klipschorns and 104 W efficient Belle center to "small," restricting bass below 80 Hz, will my NAD C272 (150 wpc) amplifiers be operating at such a low wattage output (due to lack of bass passing through them) that I'll get an increase in the kind of distortion that is produced by some solid state amplifiers at levels that are too low? Or is this a thing of the past? Are modern ss amplifiers still subject to increasing distortion at very low output levels? I bought my C272s (two of them ...see equipment profile) in 2004. The Absolute Sound liked these amps, but the Klipshorns typically use about 1/12 of the power as the speakers they use.

I've seen some SPL graphs that claim that the highest sound pressure in music occurs between 100 and 500 Hz. If this is true, no problem, about the same amount of power will be needed from the c272s as is needed now, with the Khorns/Belle set to "Large." But the high SPLs I hear seem to be in the bass ... Maybe those graphs mean "average SPL when big bass drums, timpani and the movie soundtrack infernal bass machine are not being used by the composer."

[garyrc]

Also it sounded a little better in the midrange, maby less upper bass floating around the room? or could it be less of a load on the speaker which makes it do better without trying to reproduce the lowest it capable of ?

.. or less Doppler or FM distortion in the Fortes than there would be if lower mids were riding on a cone that would be pumping in and out at strong bass or loud subsonic frequencies (as in movies). One reason I'm considering a change to a THX style 80 Hz crossover is the huge amount of bass movie people are pumping into soundtracks ... one article reported strong frequences as low as 8 Hz! I'm worried that 8 Hz might put my Khorns at risk; they do fine at 40, O.K. at 30, still respond with some distortion at 25, but 8 Hz worries me. I don't watch the kind of movie in which this is likely, but Ben-Hur is coming out in Blu-ray in the fall, and I remember that in 70mm the thunder storm and the suggestion of an earthquake shook the crap out of the theater.

[StephenM]

If I set my nominally 105 dB/1W/1M Klipschorns and 104 W efficient Belle center to "small," restricting bass below 80 Hz, will my NAD C272 (150 wpc) amplifiers be operating at such a low wattage output (due to lack of bass passing through them) that I'll get an increase in the kind of distortion that is produced by some solid state amplifiers at levels that are too low?

I assume you're referring to a graph like this:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2009/march-2009/onkyo-tx-sr706-receiver-thd-n-vs-power-8-ohms-large.gif

I would hazard a guess that what you're looking at is the noise floor of the amplifier. I wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about it. Even if that THD+N level climbed up to 0.5%, we're talking about something that is 50dB down from the main signal.

[dtel]

or less Doppler or FM distortion in the Fortes than there would be if lower mids were riding on a cone that would be pumping in and out at strong bass or loud subsonic frequencies (as in movies)

I don't know but it seems to make sense, the cone is trying to reproduce the strong frequencies at it lowest capable range may give the upper bass a slightly distorted sound, good point.

"I'm worried that 8 Hz might put my Khorns at risk;"

I don't think a strong low frequency sent to your speakers lower than they are capable of does anything , (could be wrong). Kind of like watching a movie on a laptop or with a small Ht speaker that only goes down to say 80 Hz, nothing happens below what the speaker can handle, what happens to that power/signal ? [:|]

[jacksonbart]

These guys are good, Gary you should listen to them. Good luck

[StephenM]

"I'm worried that 8 Hz might put my Khorns at risk;"

I don't think a strong low frequency sent to your speakers lower than they are capable of does anything , (could be wrong).

A sufficiently strong low frequency transient has the potential to damage speakers if they are not high passed, either in the preamp/processor/receiver or within the speaker's own crossover network. Without a filter of some sort, the speaker will continue to try and respond to the low frequency signal it is sent. Although the output will be at a much reduced level than the original signal due to the natural roll off of the speaker, the speaker cone will be getting pushed hard, potentially into over excursion. Mind you, this requires a fair amount of power (ie you've got to be listening at fairly spirited levels), and a very high amplitude signal at those frequencies to do damage, but it is possible. FWIW, plenty of subwoofers have subsonic filters to protect against such damage. I know every SVS has pretty advanced DSP limiters to protect against such destruction, and subs like the Epik Empire and JL Fathom have considerable EQ boost in the 20Hz area followed by pretty steep subsonic filters afterward to keep out of trouble.

Kind of like watching a movie on a laptop or with a small Ht speaker that only goes down to say 80 Hz, nothing happens below what the speaker can handle, what happens to that power/signal ?

Either the speakers are high passed, or there isn't enough amplification behind the speakers to drive them into over excursion anyway. I'd guess option B.

[XxCowboyxX]

So if I set my rf7's to large and 60hz xover on my receiver they will slam above that set amount and let the sub do the rest below that frequency? So I would not have to worry about running into that too low frequency problem.Correct?