loudness war explained

[Chris A]

This begs the question.... if those amps are taming those crappy recordings what do they do to really good recording?

I have new found respect...[Y]

If you need signal processing to help you listen to your recordings, then it seems to me that you'd need to get a box capable of taming those recordings- that you can turn off in your signal chain when you don't need it.

Personally, I find better recordings and I ditch the bad recordings, including MP3s, etc.

Chris

[tube fanatic]

I'm leaning more and more toward listening to rotten recordings through SET amps. The reduction in harshness is dramatic and lets me listen to discs which I couldn't tolerate otherwise. It's worth trying if a person has high efficiency speakers. Just the other day a guy called to ask for advice about turntables because he has thought about going back to analog due to the reasons stated in the video. I wound up lending him a pair of triode mono amps to try with his CWs, and he's decided to go that route instead.

This begs the question.... if those amps are taming those crappy recordings what do they do to really good recording?

Actually, they make good recordings sound phenomenal imho! But, of course, a good recording sounds that way on a shelf system also. I didn't say that the SETs are sonically accurate as, of course, they really aren't. But, they sure do make music sound pleasing. Rather than start a whole subset of thoughts on this, I'll just say that in all my years in the field I've never heard an audio system which can truly duplicate the live experience. There's no way to get the ambience of say Carnegie Hall into one's living room. A satisfying musical experience in the home is one thing, but must be differentiated from the live venue. Regarding Chris' comments about ditching the bad recordings, what does one do if the music they enjoy just isn't available in a decent recording?

[seti]

what does one do if the music they enjoy just isn't available in a decent recording?

I have alot of rare music that you just have to accept it for what it is and love it because it won't be reissued or remastered. Bad recordings or bad source condition is still different than the Loudness War.

[JJkizak]

In the beginning when CD's first came out they would just cut them (use the same master tape) the same way they did the vinyl. If you purchased a record volume LP and the same volume on CD they would sound the same. Then some engineer realized "hey, I can pump this up a ton and fly with it." The YT explanation fails to explain that they also raised the volume of the drums and bass. So now when they record digitally they could give a rats --- about the failings of master tape (signal to noise,wow and flutter) and the failings of vinyl (wow and flutter, signal to noise, RIAA curve). Crank it up baby and make those speakers rattle. Those lasers don't give a --- about volume.

JJK

[dtel]

And they wonder why sales are down, and that's discounting lack of real talent.

[tube fanatic]

what does one do if the music they enjoy just isn't available in a decent recording?

I have alot of rare music that you just have to accept it for what it is and love it because it won't be reissued or remastered. Bad recordings or bad source condition is still different than the Loudness War.

To me it's all part of the same syndrome (i.e. garbage in, garbage out). Years ago we had to deal with issues like record groove wall distortion crapping up the sound, and so on. So, to me, anything that we can do to make the home listening experience better is the real issue. As I said, it's not necessarily about sonic accuracy (which can be defined in different ways by different people), but creating a listening experience in the home which is satisfying. A number of years ago I did some work for an electrical engineer who worked for Crown in the 70s. He was horrified that I could listen to those "distortion generators" by which he meant any kind of tube amp. So I asked him if he owns recordings which sound awful on his solid state amps with nearly immeasurable distortion and he said that he did, but one just had to accept it. Well, I said, if listening to those recordings on the so called distortion generator makes them sound much better isn't is worth it? His reply was, "but it isn't accurate." I rest my case!!!

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I assume this appeals to the masses that don't have systems capable of the dynamic swings?

I don't agree. We shouldn't all be so quick to pat ourselves on the back for having good systems. Even a mediocre system will sound better when the music is not compressed. The compression makes the music "pop" when it is played on the radio after another sond. it is louder and jumps out and gets your attention (which in theory leads to more sales).

My explanation is ingoring a higher noise floor in a car or when out listening to an Ipod.

[seti]

what does one do if the music they enjoy just isn't available in a decent recording?

I have alot of rare music that you just have to accept it for what it is and love it because it won't be reissued or remastered. Bad recordings or bad source condition is still different than the Loudness War.

To me it's all part of the same syndrome (i.e. garbage in, garbage out). Years ago we had to deal with issues like record groove wall distortion crapping up the sound, and so on. So, to me, anything that we can do to make the home listening experience better is the real issue. As I said, it's not necessarily about sonic accuracy (which can be defined in different ways by different people), but creating a listening experience in the home which is satisfying. A number of years ago I did some work for an electrical engineer who worked for Crown in the 70s. He was horrified that I could listen to those "distortion generators" by which he meant any kind of tube amp. So I asked him if he owns recordings which sound awful on his solid state amps with nearly immeasurable distortion and he said that he did, but one just had to accept it. Well, I said, if listening to those recordings on the so called distortion generator makes them sound much better isn't is worth it? His reply was, "but it isn't accurate." I rest my case!!!

Eh I mostly disagree but thats ok. Its what makes this place fun.

[Don Richard]

So I asked him if he owns recordings which sound awful on his solid state amps with nearly immeasurable distortion and he said that he did, but one just had to accept it. Well, I said, if listening to those recordings on the so called distortion generator makes them sound much better different isn't is worth it? His reply was, "but it isn't accurate." I rest my case!!!

It's distortion, whether you like it or not. Just like the compression due to loudness mastering. Some actually like the louder recording. [:^)]

[juniper8]

Some cd's I have 3 copies of and they all sound different,

This is not entirely unique to CD's. All source material is at the mercy of the mastering engineer EQ...records, cylinders, casettes...everything. The abscence of any and all stereo audio mixing standards gaurantees that it's pretty much a crap-shoot everytime. There's more variety available out there now than ever before, so yes, blatant differences in mastering styles are to be expected. Although, we don't have to like it.

Maybe someone should start a thread about their favorite recordings, and the pertinant information, so others could find the same ones.

stereophile

I have only about 250 cd's and I cant listen to most of them.

How does this happen? "Can't listen to most of them" because the music sucks; or "can't listen to most of them" because the mixes suck? I'd think after the first couple of mistakes, I'd have learned my leason.

How does this happen, that I dont know! Mostly I assume it is the recordings, my space, my equipment, and that from what I have read some horns may need tubes or eq with solid state. Sorry I am not as up to date as you, dear sir, I like 2 channel the way I think it was meant to be. and this is just how I perceive it. As far as the music I listen to, I think it is O.K. Please tell me what you listen to so I can be enlightened!!! Also please tell me again how much you love your sa-xr 57!!!!!

[kaiser SET say]

CD's are all recorded to thump in your car these dayz[]

I am diggin' all these turntable threads these days tho[]

I'm thinking about installing 12 15" subs in the back of my GTi so I can feel these newly engineered bassy CD's[]

[bracurrie]

I went through my country music CDs and most have been ruined by the mastering. If there was a vinyl version released then the CD is much better most of the time.

[Chris A]

There is the LoFi music scene which is low quality in sound but much different than the Loudness War. LoFi is a musical artist statement towards the music scene but the Loudness War is from the producers and label executives.

Clearly, I'm not familiar with "LoFi" as a genre, as you refer to it, but I am familiar with Sturgeon's Law, except Sturgeon was wrong - it's more like 99% today with our information-cascaded mushups and resampling (i.e., someone forgot to bring the musicians). But that's another subject. []

I was referring to the fact that, despite the efforts of the musical artists themselves, their music is somehow butchered by those doing recording/mixing/mastering/distribution. And they do it deliberately. It reminds me of Network (the movie) and Howard Beale's mantra - somewhere there needs to be something real of of value, and that value needs to be preserved to honor those that create the music.

Having said that, I will say that, well, maybe you owe me one. That Suba CD was pretty good but the Lee "Scratch" Perry CD ("Repentance") was waaay over the top (and "X"rated", I might add). So I'd like a little consideration in my comments on your comments please. []

(...The above is reputedly been tagged as the Jub secret handshake...)

Chris []

[T.H.E. Droid]

Didn't see ANY factual information at all, just a trumped up example. If you actually bother to listen to the narrator, he says "if this track had been released in 2006, someone would probably have insisted it was this loud." I didn't see where there was an example of "before" and "after", simply a blanket claim that this is the industry standard at this time. Just another example of just how gullible audio enthusiasts have become.

[seti]

There is the LoFi music scene which is low quality in sound but much different than the Loudness War. LoFi is a musical artist statement towards the music scene but the Loudness War is from the producers and label executives.

Clearly, I'm not familiar with "LoFi" as a genre, as you refer to it, but I am familiar with Sturgeon's Law, except Sturgeon was wrong - it's more like 99% today with our information-cascaded mushups and resampling (i.e., someone forgot to bring the musicians). But that's another subject.

I was referring to the fact that, despite the efforts of the musical artists themselves, their music is somehow butchered by those doing recording/mixing/mastering/distribution. And they do it deliberately. It reminds me of Network (the movie) and Howard Beale's mantra - somewhere there needs to be something real of of value, and that value needs to be preserved to honor those that create the music.

Having said that, I will say that, well, maybe you owe me one. That Suba CD was pretty good but the Lee "Scratch" Perry CD ("Repentance") was waaay over the top (and "X"rated", I might add). So I'd like a little consideration in my comments on your comments please.

(...The above is reputedly been tagged as the Jub secret handshake...)

Chris

LoFi was prety big in the late 90's. It bothered me as I loved the music but hated the recording style. Rough to say the least. I eventually just accepted it for what it was.

" It reminds me of Network (the movie) and Howard Beale's mantra -
somewhere there needs to be something real of of value, and that value
needs to be preserved to honor those that create the music. " That is a good one I like that..

Yeah the Lee Scratch Perry IS over the top. There is only one song I really don't like on that album. It helps to have some background info on Perry. He was an amazing producer and artist in his own right. He produced some of Marley's first records and most of the big Jaimacan artist of the day until Chris Blackwell came in and stole all his clients. Chris Blackwell tried to hire Perry but Perry said I don't work for vampires. lol. Recording professionals still marvel at what he was able to do and don't know how he did much of his affects nor reverse engineer his recording style. It is what made him unique. When that album was produced he was 79..... 79! He may be a little eccentric LOL. Suba.. I forgot about one. There are many bands that have ripped off that sound. I'll have to dig it up.

I think we are actually in agreement here but the keyboards get in the way and I don't think I expressed myself well. I wasn't commenting on anyones taste in music just the quality that it is being released. I think it is unfortunate that most modern big label music is being released in a format that tortures those of us with effecient horn systems. The only exception I can think of is movie soundtracks.. I'll have to research that but most I've heard are pretty good. You know I don't think just because I like certain musician that it is good.. Chances are it is crap but it is my crap LOL....

[seti]

Didn't see ANY factual information at all, just a trumped up example. If you actually bother to listen to the narrator, he says "if this track had been released in 2006, someone would probably have insisted it was this loud." I didn't see where there was an example of "before" and "after", simply a blanket claim that this is the industry standard at this time. Just another example of just how gullible audio enthusiasts have become.

Grab a copy of Red Hot Chili Peppers blood sugar sex magic and californication.. Blood Sugar Sex Magic is produced mastered very well but Californication is a prime example of loudness war cd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

[Guest Anonymous]

Here my $.02...The sadest part of this whole thread is that this Loudness issue is never going to change. Old recordings are for us old people. and when we hear and see old records, and then hear them on a downloaded song from Itunes, its doesnt sound the same right...

On today's recordings for example, When you have LMFAO cranked in your car(I have 16 year old, and 18 year old). it would be released using today's mastering techniques. My kids would never know the difference, its just pretty much loud to start with, And to think they are the future of tomorrow.

My Kids had never seen a real Record before up until last year...they laughed at me...

both kids love Music, i've set them both up with systems. but all their music comes from itunes, and they are none the wiser, because they dont listen to old music in the same formats that we grew up with. albums and 8 tracks.

I remember having a 8 track in our car...

[seti]

Here my $.02...The sadest part of this whole thread is that this Loudness issue is never going to change.

Very true but knowing is half the battle.

[tragusa3]

I assume this appeals to the masses that don't have systems capable of the dynamic swings?

I don't agree. We shouldn't all be so quick to pat ourselves on the back for having good systems. Even a mediocre system will sound better when the music is not compressed. The compression makes the music "pop" when it is played on the radio after another sond. it is louder and jumps out and gets your attention (which in theory leads to more sales).

My explanation is ingoring a higher noise floor in a car or when out listening to an Ipod.

LOL, no need to pat myself, buddy. It was a valid observation, as is yours, and nothing more.

[Chris A]

I think we are actually in agreement here but the keyboards get in the way and I don't think I expressed myself well. I wasn't commenting on anyone's taste in music just the quality that it is being released.

It takes a lot of the fun out of it to say "I was just pulling your leg...", but I have to say that in this case. I think you expressed yourself well, however I might not have.

The only exception I can think of is movie soundtracks.

I find that the issue with movies is the LFE channel...NOT synonyous with the subwoofer channel...which often is exaggerated by as much as 10-15 dB over real life. I attribute this extreme LFE overemphasis to direct-radiating HT subwoofers that really don't preserve low frequency dynamics due to driver compression and limited SPL output at these frequencies. That's why I recommend horn-loaded subwoofers. I find that I can turn the LFE gain down and have a much more pleasing performance without dramatic overemphasis of 15-120 Hz sounds. It seems to most that people presently don't buy movies based on "loud soundtracks", but even that may be changing with the advent of iPad-sized HTs. []

Chris