Tubes vs. SS

[The Dude]

Dr. Who, Cask

As I try to wrap my brain around all of this tech stuff. A couple of simple questions come to mind. First let me say I don't care tube or ss either way as long as it sounds good to me. @ Cask As I sat down and starting typing I had think what it was I wanted to ask. Let me first clarify something as I have been to 3 websites prior to this conversation, Passlabs, Firstwatt, and Passdiy. Which are all based around Nelson Pass's designs.

I try to think how a pair of $10,000 monoblocks sound, this being said how could the sound compare to a great sounding pair of $1500.00 dollar set amps sound. Yes I know I am not comparing apples to apples. What I got to sort of wondering, is what would going from their 300 watt monoblocks, to the Firstwatt 10 watt monos at a cost $10,000 or more going down to the diy jobs that are offered at Passdiy. Could you use these amps for bi or tri amping(not that I am) but if was to. Would one use it for the LF section or the HF section or both. Something is intriguing about a ss amp that produce 10 watts.

@Dr. Who If I own one of the Mcintosh amps such as the MC2505 with the autoformers, what tap would I want to use for my Klipschorns. As I am getting ready to hook it up in the next couple of days..

I know these seem like some amateur questions but I am a amateur, and all ways trying to save my self from spending a lot of money twice if I don't have to (especially these days).

whew this stuff gets overwhelming some times.

[bracurrie]

I try to think how a pair of $10,000 monoblocks sound

To me thats the whole point about horn loaded high efficency speakers. It shouldn't cost that much to drive them well. Ok, I've got a push pull tube amp for the first time and I am not really sure what that means, but I have $500 in it. The sound stage and warmth to my ear is stunning, but its noisy. Is the extra money for a quieter amp?

Brad

[tube fanatic]

I try to think how a pair of $10,000 monoblocks sound

To me thats the whole point about horn loaded high efficency speakers. It shouldn't cost that much to drive them well. Ok, I've got a push pull tube amp for the first time and I am not really sure what that means, but I have $500 in it. The sound stage and warmth to my ear is stunning, but its noisy. Is the extra money for a quieter amp?
Brad

The cost of a tube amp does not ensure low noise, or noise free, operation. Assuming that the amp's components are all functioning properly and that there are no cold solder joints, faulty switches, power supply problems and so on, the usual cause of noise is the tubes themselves. Tubes can have issues with gas (I can identify with that!) or pins not making excellent contact with the socket. But, even in the absence of such factors, the electron flow through the tube itself can cause noise. This is why many people enjoy (?) "tube rolling" in the hope they can find some which provide the solution to noise or other issues. Some degree of noise in tube amps is something which most users accept. Unless it is very noticeable at the listening position I wouldn't worry about it. Heck, the degree of noise when playing vinyl is usually far greater than anything the amp produces.

Maynard

[Mallette]

I am with Maynard on this. I've been running a Van Alstine rebuilt Dynaco ST-80 for many years and never heard anything out of it but awesome music. THD, S/N, class A, A/B, blah, blah, blah. There would be nothing a tech could read on this amp that would make it sound any better or worse to me.

Tech talk is fine and dandy, but it's all about the music to me.

Dave

[Chris A]

I try to think how a pair of $10,000 monoblocks sound, this being said how could the sound compare to a great sounding pair of $1500.00 dollar set amps sound. Yes I know I am not comparing apples to apples. What I got to sort of wondering, is what would going from their 300 watt monoblocks, to the Firstwatt 10 watt monos at a cost $10,000 or more going down to the diy jobs that are offered at Passdiy.

I'm not your guy for the PassDIY site, but the 6moons audio site has compared "apples to oranges", like you said. For instance:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt4/f3.html

I don't recall which First Watt amplifier first impressed the guy ("Srajan Ebaen") but I recall him specifically comparing the chosen First Watt amp with $12K/pair monoblock tube amps. I recall that he really liked the F5 (no longer available). Caveat emptor: I find that this reviewer actually likes amplifiers with high output impedance, which means that he doesn't really care so much with accuracy of reproduction. He uses direct-radiator speakers, but they are fairly efficient, 101 dB/W at 1m, and appear to incorporate full-range drivers. Bottom line: I think that this guy could hear well performing amplifiers over less-well-performing amplfiers.

Could you use these amps for bi or tri amping(not that I am) but if was to. Would one use it for the LF section or the HF section or both. Something is intriguing about a ss amp that produce 10 watts.

I'm currently bi-amping, using the F3 to drive the TAD (high frequency) compression drivers on the K-402 horns from ~400 Hz to 18+ KHz (-6 dB). I use an unmodified Crown D-75A to drive the Jub bass bins (nominally 45 W/channel). Note that when you don't use passive crossovers, you don't need nearly as much power, since you aren't heating passive crossovers with your very expensive power amplifier anymore.

You could easily use the F3 to drive a pair of Khorns through their passive crossovers, but note that you would probably need a input-impedance correcting filter (i.e., a Zobel network) to handle the Khorn crossover's minimum input impedance of ~3.8 ohm. Roy D. already has a Zobel network design used for Jubs with passive crossovers, or alternatively you could just EQ the Khorns flat again. I'm sure that Roy could whip up a Zobel that could be used with the Khorn, if it hasn't already been done.

First Watt amplifiers aren't bipolar junction transistor (BJT) amplifiers, i.e., "SS amplifiers". They're FET amplifiers whose circuit designs are very different than typical class A-B (BJT) amplifiers that currently fill the marketplace. First Watt amplfiers sound astonishing without the added reverb "magic" of high output impedance SETs and OTLs. and other issues with typical class-D amplifiers.

Chris

[The Dude]

Thanks Cask you all way to put things so they make since. When I have a huge pot of coffee, I need to take time to sit down and really read a lot of the readings you post about.

[beeker]

Somebody bumped this so here goes for my update. Bottom line for me is tubes amps are for mono or stereo listening. Solid state is for theater. And i highly suggest using pro amps for theater. All the current and past 7ch $2000 theater amplifiers and the old are made for theater not music. If so you want to play music in surround sound the pro amps will provide superior music, promise! I have demo units in home ranging fro the old to brand new and my pro amps are theater sweethearts! My tube amps are music sweeties too! cheers!

[Guest David H]

First let me say I don't care tube or ss either way as long as it sounds good

That's what I am talking about!

I have tube and solid state amps ranging in price from $500 to $15K.

I love them all, but I used them for different applications.

My 300B's, I run with my Monaco speakers, or any of my Klipsch speakers. My DIY First Watt F5 will be used for the same.

My MC-2100 and MC2000 I use to run my Yields, planar's, etc.

All of these amps sound great.

Dave

Edited April 4, 2014 by GotHover

[beeker]

I agree with this statement as well depending on what particular application i have at any given time. I have done testing mostly by ears preference and to this moment in time i am only stating where i am at this particular moment in time with my preferred listening application/s. Graphs and ears can show proof to certain audio dynamics even though audio from a-z is very subjective matter.

[Taz]

I prefer SS.

Now you have.

K.

Yah gotta keep an eye on T2K. He might be fibbin just a little. He probably wouldn't admit it if he was.

All meant in good fun T2K

[Taz]

"Me ma me ma me ma me ma ma" quote from the muppets beeker

And I thought it was Sheldon Cooper

[Taz]

I like both, I think both have their pros and cons. But as far as all that tech mumbo jumbo goes. I know one thing, tubes sure look pretty.

Kinda brings back the ancient setting of being around the campfire and listening to the latest ROCK BAND. When they used real ​rocks for the rhythm section.

[beeker]

"Me ma me ma me ma me ma ma" quote from the muppets beeker

And I thought it was Sheldon Cooper

I just put that down there. Very good observation lol i actually had to utube to get it just right lol. Now you say Sheldon Cooper i may just ad that to my sig thats actually a modern me ma lol thank you much!

[Sancho Panza]

PWK used SS

[Sancho Panza]

Not that I wouldn't be willing to use McIntosh; just LOW on my audio priorities.

[eth2]

PWK used SS

And for that he had to serve 60 days in purgatory before going on to heaven and receiving his tubes.

After arriving in heaven he was seen slapping his forehead and saying "Geez, I could have had a V8 tube amp!

[Sancho Panza]

Point is, he could have had anything he wanted; prolly FREE.

[Mallette]

Don't know what he did later, but when I visited him he was using a pair of Marantz Model 8's in the main demo room.

Dave

[CECAA850]

I just like a good amp. I've heard high end tubes that I didn't like as much as some SS. I've heard SS that was unlistenable. I've heard pro-amps that sound exceptional. A lot has to do with the synergy of components but there are certainly others here that can expound on that much better than I can.

[beeker]

for some time iv had my eye on that juicy music crown you got there. better watch it cause it might just come up missing sometime i just hope yer not a good shot