Thaddeus Smith Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Still sampling my library and trying to come to a conclusion. Bass response is definitely better than it was. Deeper, fuller, punchier. Better balance with the HF (again no fault of the ALK, but definitely better than my aging OEM networks). This combination seems to be the least forgiving of poor recordings, especially the stuff with highly compressed dynamics. A lot of the rock music is being played at 80dB or less now. Vocals are amazing. Listened to this last night and it was so incredibly clear and wonderful. Trio Mediaeval - Soir, dit-elle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Dean, I think you need to send me a pair of Jupiter B-2's so I can see if the battery biasing does in fact help the cheap caps sound better than they should and more like higher end offerings. The music just sounds good. Great balance, great tone, great clarity, really nice imaging, very revealing.. the only downside is what I stated earlier: this combination of speakers, amp, and positioning is mercilessly mean with garbage source material. And still no meltdowns, even playing bass heavy music 111dB@6ft. These are my favorite so far, and not because I'm stuck with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) Am I missing something, or is a Battery biased B2 being compared to an ALK Universal. Seems to me the pertinent information for comparison would be to compare a B2 built with quality capacitors, to: the B2 using battery bias. I am intrigued by the battery bias idea an I am thrilled the initial results are positive, however I would prefer to hear about an apples to apples comparison. I would personally like to hear the difference between the Battery Bias units and the paper/ oil networks. Dave Edited February 13, 2014 by GotHover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 " mercilessly mean with garbage source material" A universal problem. The better the speakers, electronics, etc. are, the bigger the warts sound. Listening pleasure is enhanced, as well as listening pain. I built a system years ago with two K43 per cabinet, tuned to 28hz with a EV Sentry III EQ, JBL 2441 on 2380A. The system is 107dB/2.83V above 100hz or so, and has a big amplifier on it. It is only played above 100mW on a handful of music, a garbage-in-garbage-out kind of deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) Apples to apples would have been comparing biased and non-biased versions of the same crossover, using the same type/brand capacitors, under better circumstances -- something I'll hopefully be doing within the next couple of weeks. Let's remember, according to Greg Timbers of JBL, it doesn't just improve the performance of inexpensive capacitors (electrolytic, mylar, and metallized polypropylenes), but also those of the expensive variety. Since it addresses DA and the zero crossing region issue directly, I'm just a little more than interested in this. Though DJK's word is good enough for me, it helps to know that the lead engineer of JBL uses it "in all applications that involve a capacitor". http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?23070-The-continuing-saga-of-the-charge-coupled-network Normally, opportunities to compare things that I find of personal interest are kind of rare, but this last six months has been great, thanks to a few brave and patient souls. Like I keep saying, the feedback is critical to helping me decide how to do things, and so this thing with Michael was pretty important to me. There was a point back in this thread where I was feeling pretty down, and instead of pushing my face into the dirt, Michael said something that made me feel better. It was probably some kind of stupid .jpg. Michael also suggested adding a Cornwall crossover to the Roadshow, which I thought was a great idea. Since I was also overdue in the "showing a kind gesture" department, I decided to recap Michael's B2s while he was checking out the new Universals. I was more looking forward to his comments on the Universals than any comments he might have on his recapped B2s. I mean, I knew the recapped B2s would sound better than they did, thought they might compete favorably with the Universals due to the volume levels I knew he used -- but I wasn't expecting anything earth shattering. While I was waiting on Michael to ship his crossovers to me, I carved out some time on a Saturday for Dennis to teach me this charge coupling thing. After getting off the phone and realizing how simple it really was, I decided to try it on Michael's B2s, I just had to get him on board. So, this specific comparison wasn't really planned, it just kind of happened. I really just wanted some general impressions, and he's really gone the extra mile here -- he's done a really nice job. Based on his private comments, I can tell you that I know for a fact that those things are sounding a lot better than a pair of recapped crossovers should. I don't believe for a second that this can make a crossover with Dayton Audio metallized capacitors sound the same as a Jensen or Jupiter loaded crossover. But based on everything I've read on the other forums (comments which just so happened to align with Michael's comments), it does provide some of the same attributes -- all for peanuts (comparatively speaking). Inexpensive, "self-healing" metallized capacitors sound okay, but they suffer from a low level noise issue (hash), and this apparently deals with that problem (while bringing smoothness and a sense depth to the sound). I'm not going to say that "the meter readers will deny the noise issue", because it was actually the engineers working on the developmental side who first started talking about it (not audiophiles). Methods: We (me and my son, Austin) compared Speakerfritz's "floating"/isolated method to the conventional method (negative terminal of battery connected back to common). Fritz speaks of each capacitor as having two sides, and using his method charges both sides of each capacitor, which the conventional method doesn't do. We built and tested it. Nothing extravagant here, we just soldered everything together, took some measurements with a multimeter, and then finally decided to hook a driver to the circuit and played some music through it -- and it worked. However, I'm not convinced that the capacitors are biased. In fact, the more I look at the set up, the less I'm convinced it's doing anything at all. The given explanation for the "floating" method doesn't make sense to me. A capacitor doesn't have "two sides", and the capacitor is either biased or it isn't. Well, capacitors actually do have two sides, but it's like the two sides you get when you flip a piece of paper over. I think Fritz is talking about each end of the cap, the ends that are connected. For our purposes, we'll be using the conventional method -- primarily because it's an established and accepted method that's proven and costs less too. I guess we're now officially in the "how inexpensive can you make them" business, but it looks like we'll be able to do that now without compromising the sound quality much, which is pretty cool. New stuff is coming: Dennis and me are still technically in the middle of a project, and there will definitely be a charge coupled Super AA, and speaking of which, that crossover has already had adjustments applied to make it compatible with the Cornwall and two versions of the CornScala. I may cave and offer a kit or two as well, but I need to write the manuals first. Edited September 1, 2015 by Crankysoldermeister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Wow Dean! You seem to be suffering a little ADD with your product line! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Not everyone can afford $700+ crossovers. For those that can, they'll still be there. There is now something for everyone. We've applied additional technology to both inexpensive and expensive crossovers to further improve their sound (battery biased recaps and custom builds), and we've added affordable versions of crossovers to cover two loudspeakers that weren't covered before. Basically about a half dozen products (not including the recaps). You can pick solely based on what you can afford, feature set, or both. We're expanding a little and filling in some gaps, there's really nothing confusing about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Great insight and overview of the technical aspects involved Dean. I'll follow up in a couple of weeks once my ears have settled in with the new sound. I'm extremely appreciative of the opportunity to be a test subject without much investment on my part (have I said Thank You yet today?) and I'm nothing but pleased with the results. I'm certain the $5 Duracell Lithium battery upgrades has something to do with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Oh oh oh, btw.. I can hear the slightest bit of noise when no music is playing and I place my ear directly on the tweeter horn. I'm fairly certain that is a result of my amp, which lacks an output filter and therefore prone to noise, and not the crossovers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Cannot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) For our purposes, we'll be using the conventional method -- primarily because it accomplishes the same end result for less money. I guess we're now officially in the "how inexpensive can you make them" business, but it looks like we'll be able to do that now without compromising the sound quality much, which is pretty cool. yes, the conventional method is to use two capacitors of double the original valure with the bias circut in the middle. So you get double the esr doing it this way. Using the series parallel method, the esr remains the same....since you do get the double esr on one side, but it's brought back down as both sides are averaged. So in essence, uisng 4 caps in full bridge mode gets you the baising with out the ESR cost penaltiy...you basically still have 1 vritual capacitor of the same original value. but, all production implementations use the series approach using double the original caps...which when put in series...brings you back to the original cap value...but the ESR is still double. Edited February 14, 2014 by speakerfritz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Highest voltage battery that is inexpensive and battery holders easy to get. Higher voltages would be better for cheezy electrolytics. The main point is to move the dielecric absorption discharge point away from the zero-crossing point in the music (where there should be silence). By the way, polarized electrolytics (for the big woofer caps) may work better than non-polar electrolytics, and have a longer life in use (than the bi-polar). ESR is not the biggest issue in degrading the sound, the dielectric absorption is. ESR just causes a minute reduction in level, and that amount is trivial in a (new) film cap to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share Posted February 15, 2014 "Dielectric absorption is when this insulation layer absorbs some of the AC energy passing across it (some DC can also be absorbed), and can later re-release it. This phenomenon shows itself most at the "Zero crossing", where the voltage across the capacitor passes through 0V on its way from positive voltage to negative, or vice versa. Music has this happen all the time, but a static DC bias pushes the voltage across the plates (conductors) of the capacitor away from this zero crossing. In the 9V case, you would then need a +/- 9V audio signal to ever encounter the zero crossing (that's 18V). That's EXTREMELY loud with almost any loudspeaker, if it's frequently encountering that. If you were running up to 18V often, you could always add more batteries and thus voltage. Additionally, we're very sensitive to zero-crossing phenomena, like "crossover distortion" in amplifiers, or stored energy in a loudspeaker suspension." While building, I was thinking about this, and thought about how the high sensitivity of these speakers in conjunction with the relatively low part count really work against the idea of needing anything more than one battery - and the battery doesn't even need to be completely charged to prevent the signal from going into the crossing region - if I'm understanding this right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I was attempting to redo my signal input wiring to reduce RFI and I managed to trash the solder pads. A novice I am, indeed. So I'm back to the tripath amp.. everything still sounds superb, and without being so ultra sensitive to RFI and input voltages. So I'm going to leave well enough alone for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) Steve Bench (no longer at his site) Tantalum is a very poor electrolytic for audio purposes, but it cleans up nicely with a bunch of bias voltage (looks better than any of the others in fact). I'm trying it with some PIO caps, we'll see what happens. You can put two 9V batteries on a single clip, with a third connected sideways, for a total of 27V (if you think you're really going to play it loud. 9V peak is pretty loud (on a Klipsch). Edited February 15, 2014 by djk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Okay, so they are just Type AAs, and can't be used in a "CornScala" without a little bit of work, and I mean very little. Drop the squawker wire to Tap 3. Drop the tweeter section to Tap 4. Remove the black capacitors (they look like Bennics or Daytons), and replace with 6.8uF OK Dean, all done and up and running. Any way to attenuate the mids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) I also cut myself with my exacto knife and bled on them. I admire a man who puts a little of himself in his work, my utmost admiration to you sir. and how's the finger? Edited February 16, 2014 by minermark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 Lol. I charge coupled a Jamo C 803 today. Based on the result. I've decided to build a Roadshow set of modified charge coupled Type As or AAs for folks to try. The only way to describe what I'm hearing is that it's just stupid clean. I'm still trying to process what I'm hearing, it's pretty interesting. Running the pair together with Justin's little amp was weird -- the difference between the two loudspeakers was enough that I thought I had made a wiring mistake. The left channel just "stood out". It's not "brighter", it's just, uh, something -- more open maybe? The stock speaker sounds a little recessed in comparison. Parts Express was closed today, so I built the thing up using caps out of my "junk cap box" -- run of the mill stuff that had been pulled off of other boards from stuff that I've upgraded in the past. To be honest, I'm a little frustrated because I really don't have words to describe what I'm hearing. All I know at this point is that I want some other people to hear this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Lol. I charge coupled a Jamo C 803 today. Based on the result. I've decided to build a Roadshow set of modified charge coupled Type As or AAs for folks to try. The only way to describe what I'm hearing is that it's just stupid clean. I'm still trying to process what I'm hearing, it's pretty interesting. Running the pair together with Justin's little amp was weird -- the difference between the two loudspeakers was enough that I thought I had made a wiring mistake. The left channel just "stood out". It's not "brighter", it's just, uh, something -- more open maybe? The stock speaker sounds a little recessed in comparison. Parts Express was closed today, so I built the thing up using caps out of my "junk cap box" -- run of the mill stuff that had been pulled off of other boards from stuff that I've upgraded in the past. To be honest, I'm a little frustrated because I really don't have words to describe what I'm hearing. All I know at this point is that I want some other people to hear this. Is there a link to a schematic of what you are doing here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 yes! so I wasn't crazy with what I heard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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