bracurrie Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 I just downloaded a studio master digital music file and when I played it I was amazed at the sound out beyond 20k. Ok, I know my ears give out at 17k but surely it makes a difference. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Having a supertweeter helpsout in that regard have read. Been reading up on my mono speaker cabinet trying to find a thread from a music forum from around 2008 giving me the exact model /brand of my supertweet. Suppose to give it a crispness to cymbal...zzz, other HF recordings. An airiness was one descript. Nice find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 I've probably thrown the article out, but I believe Rupert Neve felt that audio consoles should have a bandwidth out to 40Khz or so, that even though we can't hear that high, artifacts/music/overtones in that region still affect how we hear what's underneath it all. Digital cut that off, CDs certainly don't have it, but the analog realm certainly did on a lot of the signal chain in recording. That's one of the reasons those consoles cost so much. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 "Rupert Neve, pissing off neighbors by making dogs bark since 1969". We should make some T-shirts and poster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I've probably thrown the article out, but I believe Rupert Neve felt that audio consoles should have a bandwidth out to 40Khz or so, that even though we can't hear that high, artifacts/music/overtones in that region still affect how we hear what's underneath it all. Digital cut that off, CDs certainly don't have it, but the analog realm certainly did on a lot of the signal chain in recording. That's one of the reasons those consoles cost so much. The old Quadraphonic LPs supposedly had sound up to 45 kHz, not all for music, but for the localization info, or something like that. The problem was that after a few plays, that extreme HF info would be reduced, and eventually gone, since the ripples in the groove were so tiny. On a related note, I remember seeing specs for 78 rpm records. They went up to maybe 14 kHz, but after 10 plays it was 12, then 10, and so on. The deterioration rate was clearly listed. The stylus looked like a nail, with about a 2 ounce tracking force, so it wasn't surprising. Do modern turntables and cartridges treat 78s better? I'd imagine they treat the discs way better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I've probably thrown the article out, but I believe Rupert Neve felt that audio consoles should have a bandwidth out to 40Khz or so, that even though we can't hear that high, artifacts/music/overtones in that region still affect how we hear what's underneath it all. Going the other direction, subs supposedly have effects into the midrange, beyond the range they appear to work in. About ten years ago, one of the real purist audiophile writers tried a subwoofer for the first time. He was pretty dubious, until he found that it was able to give aural clues to the size and shape of the performance hall, much to his surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I've probably thrown the article out, but I believe Rupert Neve felt that audio consoles should have a bandwidth out to 40Khz or so, that even though we can't hear that high, artifacts/music/overtones in that region still affect how we hear what's underneath it all. Digital cut that off, CDs certainly don't have it, but the analog realm certainly did on a lot of the signal chain in recording. That's one of the reasons those consoles cost so much. Bruce It's just as well that CDs don't extend way beyond the audio band, especially since so many modern recordings seem to incorporate a huge amount of boost in the 10+ kHz range. It certainly contributes to the "ear bleed" phenomenon which so many listeners whom I know complain of. I'm getting lots of requests for switchable hf filters which can be used to make such recordings listenable. Maynard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I've had this conversation with IBSlammin. But when our hearing starts to dip in the HF region why not get tweeters with higher HF output to compensate or eq to be hotter on top. This would sound fine for the person eq'd for but very hot HF for everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 I've had this conversation with IBSlammin. But when our hearing starts to dip in the HF region why not get tweeters with higher HF output to compensate or eq to be hotter on top. This would sound fine for the person eq'd for but very hot HF for everyone else. Problem here would be how it sounds relative to live. Spent many hours this summer hearing live music of all kinds and feel my system comes pretty damn close with live recordings. Studio stuff is different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I respect all people from all over this great country, the Americas (which does encompass both the northern, central and southern continents), but this stuff amazes me to some degree. I know there are dolphins but I am skeptical about mermaids. Enjoy your music. Life is way too short not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I can't hear much past 18k. Live music venue speakers rarely go higher than 18k. I've heard or have i super tweeters that go out to 30k. Couldn't tell abit of difference. Maybe one day Ill try it in my own music room but I remain skeptical. I say spend the extra money where you know your hearing is sensitive. I'd rather upgrade my midrange than super tweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Android Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I know there are dolphins but I am skeptical about mermaids...........A mummified mermaid......see Bart they're real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I've probably thrown the article out, but I believe Rupert Neve felt that audio consoles should have a bandwidth out to 40Khz or so, that even though we can't hear that high, artifacts/music/overtones in that region still affect how we hear what's underneath it all. See, now I'm quoting myself!I found some newer articles, interviews with Rupert Neve. His analogue circuits have around a 200kHz bandwidth and easily pass 85kHz signals. He says people can tell when there is a 5th order harmonic over 50kHz present, even though it is below the noise floor. I didn't ralize it, but he also helped desing the ES pickup system for Taylor Guitars. Amazing man who is still alive and working. He's 85! [:|] Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 I know that there is some ambiguity about the value of reproducing music sound beyond 20k. However, as a hobbyist not an audiophile, I am intrigued by the possibility it may enhance the sound of acoustic instruments recorded and distributed in digital high def formats. I am using an Eliptrac 400 horn with Faital HF 200 drivers. The speakers are placed in the corners of the room and I am very happy low end response of the Jubilee clone bass bins. What suggestions would forum members make on adding a third driver/speaker element to add the supersonic 20k+ sound? Also What amp would you use to drive the third element? I am using computer based active crossover so I would then be tri-amping. Thanks Brad BTW I like this new forum platform, it just takes a little getting used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 All musical instruments are based in fundamentals below 5000hz and there harmonics above 5000hz,,,,So to say you detect 20k,,what are you saying,,,??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 So to say you detect 20k,,what are you saying,,,??? Well from my original post in this thread I mentioned that my computer based music processor uses an EQ plugin that reports content higher than 20k in some of my music files. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) AND ?????????? WHAT DOES THAT INFORMATION MEAN TO YOU ?????? Edited November 25, 2013 by ZAKO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I've probably thrown the article out, but I believe Rupert Neve felt that audio consoles should have a bandwidth out to 40Khz or so, that even though we can't hear that high, artifacts/music/overtones in that region still affect how we hear what's underneath it all. Digital cut that off, CDs certainly don't have it, but the analog realm certainly did on a lot of the signal chain in recording. That's one of the reasons those consoles cost so much. The old Quadraphonic LPs supposedly had sound up to 45 kHz, not all for music, but for the localization info, or something like that. The problem was that after a few plays, that extreme HF info would be reduced, and eventually gone, since the ripples in the groove were so tiny. On a related note, I remember seeing specs for 78 rpm records. They went up to maybe 14 kHz, but after 10 plays it was 12, then 10, and so on. The deterioration rate was clearly listed. The stylus looked like a nail, with about a 2 ounce tracking force, so it wasn't surprising. Do modern turntables and cartridges treat 78s better? I'd imagine they treat the discs way better. Someone mentioned they had a NOS CD-4 Quadradisc cartridge here recently. Those discs had SIGNAL out to 45 or so, but not sound. Not worth going into the methodology here, but it was a discrete 4 channel system with certain similarities to FM multiplex stereo. For those with the requisite pocket protectors, the basic system was frequency modulation-phase modulation-single sideband frequency modulation. Modern TTs make 78 deterioration stop dead in its tracks. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) I just wanted to throw this out there. I'm not trying to sidetrack the thread, but I found it interesting that a porpoise had hearing ability which far exceeds a bat. Also, I didn't realize a cat could hear higher frequencies than dogs. Facinating table taken from this web address... Species Approximate Range (Hz) human 64-23,000 dog 67-45,000 cat 45-64,000 cow 23-35,000 horse 55-33,500 sheep 100-30,000 rabbit 360-42,000 rat 200-76,000 mouse 1,000-91,000 gerbil 100-60,000 guinea pig 54-50,000 hedgehog 250-45,000 raccoon 100-40,000 ferret 16-44,000 opossum 500-64,000 chinchilla 90-22,800 bat 2,000-110,000 beluga whale 1,000-123,000 elephant 16-12,000 porpoise 75-150,000 goldfish 20-3,000 catfish 50-4,000 tuna 50-1,100 bullfrog 100-3,000 tree frog 50-4,000 canary 250-8,000 parakeet 200-8,500 cockatiel 250-8,000 owl 200-12,000 chicken 125-2,000 Edit: I want to note that I can personally hear frequencies well below 64Hz. I'm kinda wishing I hadn't posted this. Edited November 25, 2013 by mustang guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Edit: I want to note that I can personally hear frequencies well below 64Hz. I'm kinda wishing I hadn't posted this. It's incorrect. Under ideal conditions, some can hear down to 12Hz, most to 20Hz. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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