Thaddeus Smith Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 I'm slowly getting my 2-channel rig setup and dialed in and like what is being thrown at my ears, but worry about the day one of you comes over and informs me that my system is crap when assessed by universal standards. I read comments by guys on the internet about such and such person taught them how to listen, but never anything further on what that means or how to learn. Thoughts? Help? Suggested reading? I know it's ultimately about what sounds good to me, but I don't want better informed guest walking away filled with sympathy and regret for coming out to sample my gear. 8 pages in, did you get your answer? Yes, by about page 1 or 2. The rest has been good fun to just observe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 And actually, I've had a few plebeians over since I started this thread. All have acknowledged that my current setup (which I consider to be haphazardly cobbled together still) sounds better than anything they have and a couple have said it's better than anything they've heard. No real jaw dropping expressions. I have a pretty extensive library that i try to let people pick from, but they all seemed frozen with "choice overload", so I need to get better about picking out demo music. So I still wonder what audio minded forum friends will say when they come over and demo, but I think this initial sampling has confirmed that I'm not suffering through with an overly bright system that may cause ear bleeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) Posted Today, 09:39 AM Don Richard, on 19 Jan 2014 - 06:53 AM, said: So when my buddy SMAARTed my Khorns then did a transfer function and the input and the output lined up on a disc that the performer deemed an accurate record of the event, that's not good enough for you? People do SMAART tests on speakers all the time. What sort of inferences are you trying to make from that test? Are you trying to say something about your speakers versus other speakers? Mdeneen is confused. You asked for an A vs B comparison and I gave you one. It illustrates that a comparison of input to output is possible and that aligning a loudspeaker improves it's performance. I don't see how I am comparing my speakers with "other speakers" since that procedure only involved my Khorns. Edited January 20, 2014 by Don Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 People do SMAART tests on speakers all the time. What sort of inferences are you trying to make from that test? Are you trying to say something about your speakers versus other speakers? Screen shot 2014-01-19 at 11.40.48 AM.png Is that on Don's behalf? Don, If questions are just too much, let me know. ok? But I thought you were doing pretty good there! No, the questions aren't too much, I've been watching the NFL Conference Championship games for the last several hours and ... IM BAAAAAAAACK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Nice job Mark, really. The foundation of music is mathematics - writing, playing, and of course the processes and execution involved with its production and reproduction. "Accuracy" is critical to the successful completion and implementation of each part of these processes. However, in the end, the math and science merely creates a framework through which "accuracy" is ultimately expressed as art. This "artistic expression" is an abstract, and within this abstract lies the freedom to do whatever necessary to find pleasure from it. As with all art, being drawn in and forming an emotional connection is critical to having a positive experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 The sound in my room, at my listening position should create a believable fantasy that includes a 3D performance stage with artists in the right spots. I don't want the drummer in front of the singer. I don't want the singer to have a 12 foot wide mouth, or be hung from the ceiling, or be coming to me from the floor. I want a trumpet to be free of compression distortion, violins ought not sound like hacksaws on metal, vocal harmonies ought to contain all the tonal nuance that such combined voices have in the live. Music should flow and gush with the ease that live instruments express. And all of this should be possible without risk of damaging my hearing. The comment I most want to hear from people who appreciate artists and music, but may not be stereo nuts is, "WOW - that sounds just gorgeous!" I want them to put down their glass and start paying attention to what they are hearing because it is sucking them into the musical performance. All to often, it's easy to get the opposite reaction where people kind of squint and scrinch up their shoulders, grab their drink and turn away to talk to someone. They are being irritated by the sound, the fakeness, the shrillness, the artificiality of it and they are hoping it will end soon. The task I am giving my system is to convey the life, the emotion of the music, the feeling of music, the sensations of live music, first. Technical details only matter if they are preventing the first goal from happening. The playing of that record is an individual performance by the stereo itself. It's an instrument that is being played by the CD/LP. Mark, that is so well stated that I'm going to show it to anyone who approaches me to design and build an amp for them! It's the philosophy which I've always embraced, and it has worked exceedingly well for decades. The greatest compliment which I get from a prospective "client" is their saying to me, "that's the sound that I want to experience with my system." Maynard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Mark, that is so well stated that I'm going to show it to anyone who approaches me to design and build an amp for them! It's the philosophy which I've always embraced, and it has worked exceedingly well for decades. The greatest compliment which I get from a prospective "client" is their saying to me, "that's the sound that I want to experience with my system." I fully agreed with that post as well from an equipment designer standpoint. But that is NOT, IMHO, the job of the recording engineer tasked with preserving an acoustic time/space event in a worthy venue. I make that distinction having said earlier I have had to deal with less than good spaces before through mike position manipulation and such to avoid distraction from the music. However, when conditions are as they should be, it is not the recordist's job to editorialize or make it sound "better." It is hard enough to simply get the event as close to being there as possible. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 I think I just realized that I'm not concerned with trying to recreate a live performance. My goal is a pleasurable presentation of the recorded media, with all of it's inherent flaws and restrictions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 +1 Thad, good observation of a long drawn out example/s. The finest thing any guest has ever said of listening on my system is "IT SOUNDS SO REAL" and afterall is that not what we all want? So today "I have a dream" to enjoy the music once again. Another fun thread full of personality, passion and maybe a little sarcasm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 As a person who is into audio equipment because of my love for music, my advice is simple: NEVER listen to equipment. Listen to music. If something in the music draws attention to the equipment there is a real or imagined problem. I have little doubt that some highly trained ears would hear issues with my system that I do not. It often irritates me (not at the person) when one such comes over and successfully gets me to hear some little thing I'd never noticed. At that point, it sticks out like a sore thumb and I am forced to deal with it. But, in general, I hear music and it sends me to my happy place. Your system exists to please you and no one else. To the extent it does, it is perfect. Dave I've been applying this advice and I notice a noise floor ( i think i'm using the right term to describe it. it's that white noise sound you here in the silent moments) on much of my music in varying degrees. Speakers are dead silent when no music is playing. Older recordings tend to be the worst offenders. Is it a poor combination with the T-amp and Cornwalls? Excellent clarity, great sound, but maybe TOO amplified and revealing? This is where I struggle going forward.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) We just can't leap to the conclusion that when a component tests well on artificial input/output wave tests that it will bring the glories of music into our rooms. That was demonstrated long ago for amplifiers, when all sorts of electronic testing became possible, and now that speakers are entering a phase of this advanced kind of electronic testing similar claims about accuracy are being made. It failed to be a judge with amplifiers, and I am sure it will fail with speakers too. That was true 30-40 years ago but today there are better testing methods and better equipment with which to run the tests. Nothing was demonstrated "long ago" except that the tests used back then were inadequate and did not correlate well with what we heard. Total Harmonic Distortion tests were only good for detecting gross nonlinearities in amplification equipment and not very good for qualitative analysis. Today we use spectrum analyzers, phase readouts, impulse tests and other methods that correlate much better with what we hear. I am sure we will do even better with this sort of thing in the future. There are folks who do not believe in troubleshooting a problem before trying to fix the problem. This sort of backward thinking results in the problem either not being fixed, taking much longer to fix the issue, or having the "fix" create other issues sometimes worse than the original problem. Some idiots still put air in the tires on their vehicle and kick the tires to determine if the air pressure is correct. Most professionals today will agree that using an air gage works much better than 1920s techniques. Edited January 20, 2014 by Don Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I think I just realized that I'm not concerned with trying to recreate a live performance. My goal is a pleasurable presentation of the recorded media, with all of it's inherent flaws and restrictions. Go back and see my post on the first page. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 it's that white noise sound you here in the silent moments) on much of my music in varying degrees. As I am found of saying, "How can I know what YOU hear?" What is the source? If it is LP, you are likely hearing tape hiss from the master. Assuming you are hearing what you say, musicality and pleasing balance, then your are hearing what you paid for...everything that is present, perfectly balanced. One of the issues with horns is that they are merciless. If it's present, you are going hear it unless something is malfunctioning. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 Agreed, and I lack the vocabulary to adequately describe what I'm hearing. CD and Vinyl rips. I think the issue is what you describe, merciless horns and near-field listening position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 It could be just a gain staging thing. Try reeling back the amp a bit and feeding it a hotter signal from upstream. (This will only work if the noise you're hearing is due to system noise, not source material noise, but it doesn't hurt to try.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) Tripath is like SET with no feedback, the frequency response tracks the impedance curve at the higher frequencies. If your high frequency output is elevated, then you're also hearing more of the low level garbage in your recordings. Edited January 21, 2014 by DeanG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 Tripath is like SET with no feedback, the frequency response tracks the impedance curve at the higher frequencies. If you're high frequency output is elevated, then you're also hearing more of the low level garbage in your recordings. I think you're accurately describing what I'm hearing and the cause. Looking forward to hearing what impact some crossover upgrades have on the sound. I was gifted one of the T-amps and bought the other one for comparison; they were a cheap and easy way to get off the ground listening when I fell into these Cornwalls without any real system in the works. Huge power seems overkill for the space I'm working in, but I may ultimately need to go after some of those A/B amps in order to remove the T-amp effects. *shrug* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Doesn't your MacBook Pro your using for a source have some sort of EQ or tone control program for the music files you play? My mobile phone has a app called PowerAmp that does that sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 Sure, but that's a PITA to try and identify and change on a per-track or album basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 it's that white noise sound you here in the silent moments) on much of my music in varying degrees. As I am found of saying, "How can I know what YOU hear?" What is the source? If it is LP, you are likely hearing tape hiss from the master. Assuming you are hearing what you say, musicality and pleasing balance, then your are hearing what you paid for...everything that is present, perfectly balanced. One of the issues with horns is that they are merciless. If it's present, you are going hear it unless something is malfunctioning. Dave I disagree about LP's what I hear is not only the master tape, but the noise of a super hard rock being dragged thought a soft ditch at various velocities and frequencies at 20,000 lbs per square inch of pressure, converting every bit of dirt and dust into a tick and pop, totally spoiling the illusion. This is why I converted to CD's in 1983, even then the only player on the market was a SONY. Knowing how far superior digital could be, I coudn't wait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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