How to "listen"?

[Fjd]

It's refreshing to see everyone staying on topic.

Sure is an interesting thread as it meanders along. In addition, I would be curious as to what people actually do critically listening for? For example, to evaluate gear (i.e. a single-ended amplifier vs. push-pull vs. solid state vs. tube vs. chip amp) and write a meaningful review is there a set criterion to evaluate what we hear?

I’m curious if the ‘experts’ are just more observant of various psycho-acoustic effects, distortions and artifacts, or do they have better hearing acuity than the general population that may not critically listen?

While the benchmark may vary, I suspect that most have trained themselves in some form to be more observant of nuances or artifacts in reproduced sound than the average listener. Others have probably trained themselves to recognize the tone and timbre of individual acoustic instruments. In some respects, I suspect that ten different people may have ten different answers.

With my various systems, when I’ve tried to critically listen to evaluate what I hear, I listen for clarity of the detail parts of the music (the pluck of a guitar string or the note played on a piano or a note from a saxophone and is the bass just “one-note-bass” or can I hear the various drums such as the snare drum, or the kick drum and tell whether the kick drum is stuffed or not).

Some people have told me that they can even hear the instrument harmonics change in a recording in accordance with a familiar venue's humidity level.

The other aspect I try to listen for is the tone or timbre of the acoustic instruments that I’m more familiar with. Sometimes it takes re-calibrating my musical memory; however, for the instruments that I’m familiar with, I look for the musical reproduction to sound natural and be a somewhat faithful representation of the individual instrument as possible. I’m not really sure if I’m looking for ‘accuracy’ or something else here, but it seems that an acoustic guitar should sound somewhat like an acoustic guitar when reproduced from a recording.

Regarding that “hiss” and those “pops, buzzes, clicks, noises, etc.” that are found with some recordings, it seems that my really good systems tend to move that noise away and disconnect it from the music (the noise becomes somewhat similar to my girlfriend dropping a pan or something in that the noise doesn’t become part of the music experience); however, the poor components I’ve tried seem to show themselves quickly as they tend to push the noise right in my face with the music.

On the home page of the link below, there are actually four different tests (Tone deaf test, Rhythm test, Adaptive pitch test & AMVI test); however, the link is specifically to the “tone deaf test.” To me, the test seems to measure a person’s short-term music memory and possibly the ability to recognize the timbre and notes played. I thought it may be helpful to understand how much ‘re-calibration’ my memory needed.

http://jakemandell.com/tonedeaf/

When I took the test, I decided to limit distractions and used my Dragonfly DAC and headphones. Here are how the results pages are presented.

[Thaddeus Smith]

just ran through the test here at my office. about halfway through you start second guessing your choices.. i still managed to squeek out an 80.6% correct.

I'll have to take it again when I'm not as distracted or in a hurry.

[mike stehr]

83.3%. With junk plastic media speakers resonating along with the tones.

[Quiet_Hollow]

72.2%

Guess it's time to sell my speakers.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

78 Shellac records didn't require a tweeter (see old PWK papers)

Man, it comes hard to say...but PWK was wrong.

Uh oh:

[Mallette]

Carry-over from pro sound, where ideally FOH / monitor desk wants the hottest signal going into the mixer maximize gain before feedback.

That's what I don't understand. 2 inches straight into the mike as opposed to 2 inches with the transducer off axis from the breath is still 2 inches.

Dave

[Mallette]

Sure is an interesting thread as it meanders along.

Always the best kind...

Thaddeus: "Any chance you guys can stay on topic"

Guys: "No"

Thaddeus: "OK"

Dave

Edited January 24, 2014 by Mallette

[Deang]

"I’m curious if the ‘experts’ are just more observant of various psycho-acoustic effects, distortions and artifacts, or do they have better hearing acuity than the general population that may not critically listen?"

The former, which is one of the things that annoys Bob about me. I've been doing this since I was 14 years old. I was exposed to SAE, Phase Linear, Dynaco, Hafler, etc., while most of my friends were listening with those cardboard setups from JC Pennys and K-mart. My first system was my Mom's old tube driven Grundig console - hey, don't laugh, that thing sounded really nice!

I believe people can be taught what to listen for, it's really just like most other things - exposure and experience creates "experts". Most just can't figure out how to describe what they're hearing. The most common adjectives used by subjectivists either don't make sense to them or they aren't comfortable using them.

[Thaddeus Smith]

I believe people can be taught what to listen for, it's really just like most other things - exposure and experience creates "experts". Most just can't figure out how to describe what they're hearing.

this was my goal in asking the initial question 11 page ago.

[Boxx]

Do you still play the AR-3a?

Yes, I do. I was able to pick up a pair of (original) AR speaker stands and together they look great and the sound, I my opinion, is very pleasing.

[Chris A]

I believe people can be taught what to listen for, it's really just like most other things - exposure and experience creates "experts". Most just can't figure out how to describe what they're hearing. The most common adjectives used by subjectivists either don't make sense to them or they aren't comfortable using them.

On page two of this thread, you will find a link, shown again below. There is a link to a book that will allow you to train your ears for the purpose of audio recording/audio systems:

https://community.kl...dations-anyone/

This is not the same type of training that you would receive if you were taking an undergraduate music degree and would be compelled to take "ear training" in your first semester. Note that piano tuners take yet another type of training, etc.

I saw Roy Delgado in action while he was fine tuning Jubilees in different configurations. This is a skill that can be learned, but note that the purpose of music reproduction, IMHO, is to reproduce that which has been recorded, so I'd recommend at some point ear training for musicians. This was one of the most enoyable experiences (in retrospect) that I had during that phase of my education.

Chris

Edited January 24, 2014 by Cask05

[Mallette]

Just because a person loves having a giant stereo doesn't mean they have any interest in what you call "nuances and artifacts." And, there's no reason they should. There are many reasons to have a giant stereo, and many ways to enjoy it. One is not better or worse than another.

TRVTH

The fact that those who listen to the music, and those who listen to the system, get along in places like this as well as we do is one of the great mysteries. If we could figure it out, we could have peace in the middle east...

Dave

[Mallette]

I wonder how a "novice" at this determines whether they are predominately of the "equipment head" type or the "music head" type. I could hardly be more critical of engineering but dismiss surface noise, hiss, clicks and pops, frequency response, etc, depending upon the medium and the system. I will not notice things that absolutely send an equipment head over the top, but I've listened to what I considered crap recordings with equipment heads who were swooning over the qualities of their bottlehead or whatever. In that case, it's pretty easy for me to determine where an audiophile's head is...but how do THEY know this in their formative years? I can say I wouldn't have been able to say which I was at 30 or so. While I knew some things sounded better than others, I was never quite sure whether it was the equipment or the recording, or both. Took a long time to sort it out.

Never really gave this much thought until this thread.

Dave

[Thaddeus Smith]

Well sum'bi'ch.. It would seem a good portion of my noise problem can be directly attributed to my old crossovers. Whether they were attenuating inherent tape noise, adding noise, or just not fond of my T-amps, I'm not sure. These loaners from ALK, however, exhibit none of what I was hearing previously. There's some tape noise in some older albums, but it's dramatically reduced and more in line with what I was hearing through headphones.

[garyrc]

I'll bet they weren't free from hiss when your ears were 20 years younger

Well, I started to mention that. OTOH, I MADE them when my ears were 20 years younger and they were quite silent. Some of the R2R I made in the 70s using DBX and Ampex GrandMaster. AGM on a 15IPS deck was pretty close to silent anyway. DBX 2:1 compression yielded an SN in excess of a 100db.

Dave

I'll admit that one recording I made with DBX and a Crown reel to reel @15 i.p.s. with 1/2 track Scotch 206 was pretty damn quiet, hiss-wise, but, with the volume turned up to provide really high SPL in the loudest passages, you could still hear a slight hiss in the softest passages, compared to playing the leader. And, as someone else said, some good speakers to tend to "detach" the hiss from the music.

[Deang]

You're hearing a flatter response now. A rebuilt B2 won't be able to do that, but that doesn't mean you won't end up preferring it.

Any detectable lack of sensitivity?

[Marvel]

I remember hearing David Wilcox perform live at an outdoor space in Chattanooga a number of years ago. During his sound check, he used his voice to do a frequency sweep, and told the (awful) soundman what to change in the eq. The performance was one of the best acoustic events I have heard in that venue.

Bruce

[Thaddeus Smith]

Not that I can detect Dean. It seems the same or better from a perceived sensitivity, though the tweeter is running a bit hot. I left the jumpers wherever ALK set them as a first best guess and I'm too lazy to undo all those screws again. Maybe in a week or so..

[Deang]

A hallmark of that network type - the ever so slight hot tweeter. Al wants me to add the transformer based units to what I build, but it adds significant cost to what I firmly believe is something that only needs 1dB of additional attenuation.

Due to their age, your stock networks are probably exhibiting more loss than they should be. Many actually notice a slight reduction in sensitivity with the Universals.

Since I'm rebuilding your B2s with polypropylenes, they will undoubtedly sound brighter than they do now. I don't think the battery biasing will help with that, though I do expect for you to hear a smoother, more open sound than you're experiencing right now.

The Klipsch crossovers are fairly reactive in nature, and you may find yourself having to move away from Tripath if you want the flatter response.

Edited January 25, 2014 by DeanG

[Mallette]

I'll admit that one recording I made with DBX and a Crown reel to reel @15 i.p.s. with 1/2 track Scotch 206 was pretty damn quiet, hiss-wise, but, with the volume turned up to provide really high SPL in the loudest passages, you could still hear a slight hiss in the softest passages, compared to playing the leader. And, as someone else said, some good speakers to tend to "detach" the hiss from the music.

Even with 206, which I don't specifically recall the SN on but know it was nowhere near Ampex 457, it's hard to imagine hearing hiss from the tape. Assuming you were using the DBX tape compander (fixed 2:1) even a starting -50db SN would yield -100db SN from the tape. As I always say, no way I can question what another hears...but I'd suspect the hiss was from elsewhere in the chain. Crown made some awesome decks "back in the day." I had a couple...can't recall the models...of huge 4 track ones the size of a steamer trunk in a studio I put together for an A/V operation and loved them to death. The company contacted me a few years after I'd moved on about helping them sell them. Wish I'd bought one.

Dave