How loud do you listen?

[Thaddeus Smith]

just because I rarely ever listen past 85-90dB, i thought I would give Aphex Twin - Digeridoo a nice loud play at "dial turned to 11" mode. A 6ft, max was 111dB using my little 8wpc amp on cornwalls.

[Zen Traveler]

From reading this thread, I guess I need to turn it up a little, lol.

Or have children...We all have our priorities.

Edited February 13, 2014 by tkdamerica

[Thaddeus Smith]

From reading this thread, I guess I need to turn it up a little, lol.

Or have children...We all have our priorities.

Or be fortunate enough to have a detached garage with a built in room. Wife and child are slumbering while I jam.

[Islander]

With music, the volume level varies with the type of music and the mood I'm in.

With movies, I set the volume so the dialogue sounds "normal", that is, loud enough to understand, but not so loud as to be annoying. Once that's right, the other sounds in the movie should come out as soft or loud as the director intended.

If it's late at night and explosions or other special effects are too loud, I switch the AVR into Night Mode, which reduces the dynamic range so explosions are less loud, but dialogue is still loud enough.

[Chris A]

With music, the volume level varies with the type of music and the mood I'm in.

With movies, I set the volume so the dialogue sounds "normal", that is, loud enough to understand, but not so loud as to be annoying. Once that's right, the other sounds in the movie should come out as soft or loud as the director intended.

I find that my tastes in music and movie loudness is in the range of 60-80 dB(A or C scales, your pick). This is interesting in that OSHA also mandates noise and/or music levels above 80 dBA to be attenuated in the workplace or that ear protection be used. I think that there is a message there.

When my wife isn't at home, I occasionally turn it up to 90-95 dBC in the peaks, with most of the music in the 75-80 dBC range. Once it goes louder than that, I find that my ear's natural defenses turn themselves on - my ears start to become muffled like in going to a rock concert. This is beginning to be a point of real concern for me, since I now know that I can miss some very low-level conversations that are important for me to hear at work, etc. Note that my system is capable of going much, much louder without any distortion. I try to limit the volume now. This has got nothing to do with some external QA standard like THX, but my own needs and tastes. So I'm with Islander on this subject.

IMHO, THX sound levels--reference levels--are for setting the capabilities of theater sound systems, NOT for typical peak music levels. I find that action movies nowadays at the local theaters (yes...they use Klipsch loudspeakers... ) are getting too loud for me especially in the trailers. I'm considering bringing ear plugs the next time I go.

Young folks as a group I believe don't care very much about hearing loss. This is a historical fact borne out even in the time of my youth.

YMMV.

Chris

Edited July 8, 2014 by Chris A

[ClaudeJ1]

It's interesting that those of us who have all horn systems with low distortion and high db capability listen at lower levels than those who don't. I thinks that all the "micro details" and "inner voices" we hear in recordings, be they music or movies, allow us to turn it down without losing those things.

While we probably crank things up a bit louder than normal to show off to friends here and there, it's our long term habits that make the difference.

I went to a rock bar for the first time in decades and hated it. The cover band played pretty well, but it was too damn loud to talk to my date. So we danced a few and got out of there. Used to love it at 20 but that is all crap to me now.

Age is the price of wisdom yet some people never learn to keep their hearing as long as they can. I hope to live as long as PWK and still be able to hear to 10 Khz. by then. That is my goal anyhow, which means I have a LOT of listening to do.

[Schu]

Try a jazz or fusion club next time... i bet you end up loving it and your ears will thank you.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

It's interesting that those of us who have all horn systems with low distortion and high db capability listen at lower levels than those who don't. I thinks that all the "micro details" and "inner voices" we hear in recordings, be they music or movies, allow us to turn it down without losing those things.

While we probably crank things up a bit louder than normal to show off to friends here and there, it's our long term habits that make the difference.

I went to a rock bar for the first time in decades and hated it. The cover band played pretty well, but it was too damn loud to talk to my date. So we danced a few and got out of there. Used to love it at 20 but that is all crap to me now.

Age is the price of wisdom yet some people never learn to keep their hearing as long as they can. I hope to live as long as PWK and still be able to hear to 10 Khz. by then. That is my goal anyhow, which means I have a LOT of listening to do.

Same experience here but without horns. I found that as I got more resolving / better spekaers, I listen at lower levels. Don't think it is age, it started in my 30's.

[ClaudeJ1]

Same experience here but without horns. I found that as I got more resolving / better spekaers, I listen at lower levels. Don't think it is age, it started in my 30's.

Your moniker implies you have Khorns, so whatchagot that resolves so well? Ribbons, electrostats, Maggies, what?

[ClaudeJ1]

Try a jazz or fusion club next time... i bet you end up loving it and your ears will thank you.

But of course, although it's hard to dance to Jazz. So yes ears happy, but feet asleep.

[garyrc]

I'll answer the Audyssey/movie question here, because it seems in context here. For reasons too complicated to go into here, with my very efficient speakers (e,g,, Khorns @105 dB@1w@1M) I had to temporarily use attenuators to run (set up) Audyssey, while allowing for a full range of Audyssey's auto adjustment. Without the attenuators, Audyssey couldn't have set up the Khorns. Once Audyssey was set up, I removed the attenuators which were advertised, and which measured, 12 dB. Chris K., the CTO of Audyssey confirmed that now "0 dB" would be -12 dB on my volume control. We usually run movies at somewhere between -12 and -19, which on a normal sound system would be 0 down to -7 dB.

Thanks for posting and I would LOVE to have the space for K-Horns in Home Theater! I really appreciate you reporting what Chris told you about a different way of setting them up with the -12 situation and if you have a link to the discussion that would be great--I'm not questioning it as much as I would like it to be a reference for others.

They sound great!

I don't have a link. The discussion was somewhere in the old "Ask Audyssey" internet collection -- it was so long ago (2 years?) I'm not sure where, but probably under Reference Level or Set-up, or the like. Sadly, the new "Ask Audyssey" is on Facebook, which I don't have. I don't know if it includes the old Q & As.

The "-12 situation" would only apply if someone's speakers were too efficient to set up the regular way. This would be if Audyssey attempted to set the trims at -12 (which is the maximum automatic Audyssey trim cut on my Marantz preamp), and therefore the user would not be sure if Audyssey would trim it out at even below -12, if it could. It is a coincidence that the maximum trim cut allowed for each individual speaker on Audyssey/Marantz is 12 dB, the same figure as that of the temporary outboard attenuators. I should make it clear that the Marantz porthole read "0 dB" during calibration because the Marantz thought it was pumping 0 dB into the power amps and speakers. I ended up with -12 only because in shopping for attenuators I found a bunch that were -12, and I thought "Let's see if temporarily making the speakers 12 dB less efficient will be enough to allow Audyssey to set the front channels (Khorns and a Belle Klipsch)." I was pretty sure it would be enough, since the Khorns (105 dB @ 1w @ 1M) are 15 dB more efficient than a typical non-Klipsch speaker (90 dB @ 1w @1M), and that's only 3 dB away from making the Khorns typical, rather that high, efficiency. I was confident that Audyssey would make their system so it would work with 93 dB/1w/1M speakers, or they would have eliminated too many of the speakers out there. Chris merely confirmed that by tricking my system into thinking it used 93 dB speakers, and letting Audyssey do its adjusting, 0 dB would be Reference with the attenuators, and -12 dB after I removed them post calibration.

The exact efficiency of the Khorns doesn't come into this -- just the fact that they were too efficient to set up until they were temporarily made less so. Also, I confirmed that the attenuators -- in my system -- really reduced band limited pink noise by 12 dB.

[garyrc]

Taking the last point Chris (Cask05, not Chris K) made first, I've seen the classic open letter Dolby sent to the movie industry basically telling them it is idiotic to set the trailers at a higher level than the films themselves. Not only is it annoying, but, at home, it may result in people running the movies too soft, having turned down the offensive previews. They seem to have ignored Dolby's wisdom. Typical.

I believe the OSHA recommendations refer to prolonged or somewhat steady sound, within a certain relatively narrow (compared to, say, orchestral music) peak/valley range -- like the noise running a machine might make. I think the table I saw had allowable levels ranging from a moderate SPL for 8 hours, to a high SPL (115 dB??) for 15 minutes. EDIT: I just looked it up. They want industry to sit up and take notice at 85 dB for 8 hours. But, scroll down to the first chart; it has maximums of 90 dB for 8 hours, and 115 dB for 0.25 hours. This is all at "Slow," with "A" weighting. http://www.oshanoise.com/osha_standard.html

The typical level of a ff passage in classical or modern orchestral lve music might well be 80 -- 90 dB, but some peaks will be much louder for a short time (e.g., Moussorgsky's Great Gate of Kiev, Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man, most Beethoven Symphonies). The total duration of the loud peaks would be much shorter than the 15 minutes at OSHA's maximum SPL, and would be revealed by a SPL meter set to "fast," rather than "slow." PWK's old contention that for the "blood stirring" levels of a live symphony orchestra you need 115 dB at your ears seems correct to me. I typically measure at "Fast" and "C" weight, because I think that reflects the true nature of the peaks in the kind of music I play. I would never play most Rock, Metal, etc. at that level, but, then again, I rarely play those genres at all. I do enjoy playing orchestral music, some jazz, and movie scores with peaks up there. As to movies themselves, in most cases, at the level where the dialog is realistic, the playback is at or near reference, and there will be a few big peaks in most newer films. If a movie is loaded with big sound effects, I'll turn it right down..

Edited February 15, 2014 by Garyrc

[derrickdj1]

Last night I did some extended music listening and pulled out the old Rat Shack meter. On average I listen 65-75 db with peaks. I checked this on the fast and slow settings. I can't listen to music long much above this level without it seeming to loud. I guess if I turn things up to 80 db, that will be really blasting the system, lol.

[Chris A]

...PWK's old contention that for the "blood stirring" levels of a live symphony orchestra you need 115 dB at your ears seems correct to me.

I typically measure at "Fast" and "C" weight, because I think that reflects the true nature of the peaks in the kind of music I play. I would never play most Rock, Metal, etc. at that level, but, then again, I rarely play those genres at all. I do enjoy playing orchestral music, some jazz, and movie scores with peaks up there. As to movies themselves, in most cases, at the level where the dialog is realistic, the playback is at or near reference, and there will be a few big peaks in most newer films. If a movie is loaded with big sound effects, I'll turn it right down..

I think that we're very close on our preferences and views on this subject.

A few years ago, I remember an article in the news that many musicians (including orchestral) were being subjected to SPLs on a daily basis that resulted in hearing loss--i.e., a profession that results in disability--and that there were proposals that OSHA should step in and regulate, or that disability be paid to these musicians if the government did nothing to protect their hearing.

I'm not going to speak against anyone getting help for physical disability, but it seemed to me at the time an extremely odd article that I thought was overplayed in the press. Clearly, we are talking about SPLs--even for classical music--that can damage hearing if played too loud for too long, for too many years. I have elected to extend my hearing acuity by a few years by moderating SPLs at home.

Chris

Edited February 15, 2014 by Cask05

[Quiet_Hollow]

Last night I did some extended music listening and pulled out the old Rat Shack meter.

Using the meter is a real eye opener. Isn't it?

When I lived up north, I went to Summerfest a couple of times with my meter in hand. Like a big geek, I strolled around through all the different arenas, bands, and stacks of gear measuring and correlating what I was hearing.

One of the most insightful (and enjoyable) studies I've ever done. In the end, it saved me a butt-load of cash by encouraging me not to chase after ridiculous numbers.

[ClaudeJ1]

Clearly, we are talking about SPLs--even for classical music--that can damage hearing if played too loud for too long, for too many years. I have elected to extend my hearing acuity by a few years by moderating SPLs at home. Chris

I have been using Radio Shack meter for many years to try and get some numbers as to: "What is a safe, yet, satisfying level of sound?"

Old JBL literature recommended 75 db average. HT calibration is at 85 db, which is OSHA maximum. They used to recommend 90 for factories, but they too got wiser over time and with more data.

I have two SPL meter APPS on my iPhone5, and they were FREE. I'm sure there is equivalency out there for those with Android or Windows phones. Both of the apps closely agree with my RS meter, so you guys that don't have one can get several of them for free for your smart phones!

[ClaudeJ1]

One of the most insightful (and enjoyable) studies I've ever done. In the end, it saved me a butt-load of cash by encouraging me not to chase after ridiculous numbers.

Ah, yes, this in contrast to some of the DB freaks on this board (who shall remain nameless) who brag about hanging 500 Watt amplifiers on commercial Khorns and measuring close to 130 db levels in their living rooms, probably metal heads. Why not just stick your face inside a bass drum or near a jet plane taking off. The "enjoyment" would be nearly identical and free.

But I confess, I was one of those DB freaks as a teen. Age is the price of wisdom.

[ClaudeJ1]

When my wife isn't at home, I occasionally turn it up to 90-95 dBC in the peaks, with most of the music in the 75-80 dBC range. Once it goes louder than that, I find that my ear's natural defenses turn themselves on - my ears start to become muffled like in going to a rock concert. This is beginning to be a point of real concern for me, since I now know that I can miss some very low-level conversations that are important for me to hear at work, etc. Note that my system is capable of going much, much louder without any distortion. I try to limit the volume now. This has got nothing to do with some external QA standard like THX, but my own needs and tastes. So I'm with Islander on this subject.

I remember taking my nephew to a RUSH concert at Cobo Hall in Detroit. I wore earplugs and brought a DB meter, having seen RUSH in a smaller venue back when they first started. The meter's needle was PARKED at 107 db for almost the entire show!

This is why I prefer Jazz in small venues and if I listen to RUSH, it's on my reference system where I substitute a volume control for earplugs.

[derrickdj1]

It has been at least a year or a little more on this forum since one of our members reported severe hearing loss and cautioned the forum members on excessive spl. Loud music was not the only thing that lead to his hearing problems, I think he also worked on an aircraft carrier in one of the wars where a lot of large weapons were fired. Once the hearing is gone, there is no getting it back.

[Islander]

I used to work in a powerplant that had noise maps near every entrance. Some locations were tolerable with either earplugs or earmuffs, but the loudest locations in the turbine room (the room was 8 storeys high and 1/4 mile long) called for both earplugs and earmuffs.

As well as working in noisy locations, with locomotives before the steam turbines, and punch presses after that, I rode motorcycles for many years, so I got in the habit of always having a few pairs of foam earplugs with me. The bikes had stock mufflers, but the wind noise was the issue.

Most rock concerts call for earplugs, but sometimes the volume will be just right, in my opinion. In those cases, earplugs loosely inserted are all I need. I've been to concerts where the volume is so high that it overloads the room, and even lower volume moments, like when the singer speaks between songs, are still completely unintelligible. That doesn't impress me at all, but some bands think they have to be three notches louder than the already loud enough opening act.

Twice now I've seen Dweezil Zappa do his Zappa Plays Zappa show (last time two weeks ago), with his sound mixed by Glynn Wood, and both times I've complimented Glynn on the sound mixing. It's loud enough for "rock impact", but very clear, and not deafening. These are the concerts that only need loosely-fitting earplugs. The most annoying/deafening parts are the fans that must whistle their appreciation.

After all those loud years, the hearing protection has paid off, and I can still hear very faint sounds easily. Sometimes people's voices and music vocals don't seem as clear as they used to, but overall I can't complain.

People are more aware of loud noises these days. In my town, I sometimes see people cover their ears when a fire truck or ambulance passes on the street. Those sirens are a bit painful to my ears, so I cover them too, on occasion.

Some friends of mine who are the same age as me are near-deaf now, and I don't envy them at all. Protect your hearing! As derrickdj1 mentioned, once it's gone, it doesn't come back.