Neil Young's Pono

[imahawki78]

IMHO it is not the compression to MP3, M4A or whatever, it is the fact that the song is mixed for factory car stereo and Apple earbuds. Its not the file format, its the mix that needs corrected. There is no dynamic range or space between instruments and vocalists in today's mixes.

[Tarheel]

Welcome to the forum imahawk!

[Gilbert]

Tinnitus.

That's a good one!!! can't stop laughing,.... thanks!

Edited March 15, 2014 by Gilbert

[joessportster]

I have no idea what it would look like but I was hoping for a totally new music format.

Frankly something has to change soon as I am getting very disillusioned with current offerings. Compressed CDs or noisy vinyl....not much of a choice.

And yes I have tried listening beyond the ticks and pops to get to the music but sometimes that suggestion is like the judge instructing the jury to disregard the white horse.

What Diz said above "dynamic range w/o the ticks and pops of vinyl" and I would add a great recording of the master tape a la some of Mallette's preaching

So to be clear I would like for some thoughtful sound guys who care about their product to record some really wonderful musicians who care about their performance and for all of this to be transferred to a non compressed or modified medium that is free of noise and distractions. All for $12.99 a copy!

I see this a Lot, complaints about ticks and pops etc... on vinyl, I was a long time vinyl FREAK it was all I listened to. And Some Vinyl is indeed noisy, However I found the MAJORITY of noise on vinyl was my fault

Properly cleaned vinyl, and a properly set up table, and arm.

And MOST IMPORTANT a properly set up cartridge and stylus. Made all the difference in the world. Most people are not willing to invest the time in the setup, or get disgusted with the process and settle

It takes infinite patience and you have to be willing to go back and forth to get it there, suspended tables are the worst, Be off a fraction of a mm and it makes a difference

I no longer use vinyl I have no space for the equipment required , Now all my music is ripped lossless and on my hard drive, which is WAY MORE CONVENIENT

Caveat: This is not directed at anyone in particular just the notion that vinyl will pop and click with no remedy

Edited March 15, 2014 by joessportster

[kaiser SET say]

I think Schu mentioned the AK series DAP's which are miles ahead of your $50 Sansa Dap's and what I'm hearing Neil and his posse saying is his $300 DAP is going to do the same thing as the $800 plus AK DAP's in that it will play back native DSD digital recordings from the artist libraries without for a better choice in words doctoring up the files with added BS for the car system MP3 players.

I'll never give up my vinyl at home and Joe is correct, IMHO nothing touches a properly set up vinyl rig to this day! I also have no doubt that digital is the format of convenience which started with the venerable CD to any codec of digital file today however and once again IMHO we hear in analog so for me the dream for digital music has always been to get as close to the original master tape recordings of the artist. We gave the new and improved DVD-A and SACD a chance so why not see where this new digital format takes us?

I know my digital dream is to really put on a file track on any one of my portable DAP's and have it sound like vinyl recorded from master tape. I think they are doing this same thing at AK but with a much higher price tag! It is also my opinion that this venture by Neil is to help put more money directly into the artist pocket instead of feeding all the middle men who destroy the music and then charge you out the wazoo:-( I've yet to have a digital player in any of my cars that could even come close to my old Pioneer/Alpine analog cassette head units. As I have said these are my opinion but just like Art Dudley's piece in stereophile this month, I already know how to listen to music and what I like:-)

Edited March 15, 2014 by kaiser SET say

[DizRotus]

Man this forum is filled with drama right now. Don't think I have seen it this bad in my time here

IMHO it is not the compression to MP3, M4A or whatever, it is the fact that the song is mixed for factory car stereo and Apple earbuds. Its not the file format, its the mix that needs corrected. There is no dynamic range or space between instruments and vocalists in today's mixes.

IMO it's compression, poor performance, poor recordings and poor mixes that explain the sorry state of recorded music today. Many vinyl records sound very good because they were well recorded excellent performances that weren't compressed for file storage or mixed to be heard on car speakers. They don't sound good just because a tiny diamond is dragged over wavy plastic.

Some of the posts in this thread focus too much on portability and the comparison of the triangular Pono player to iPods and the like. IMO that misses the point. Portability is not the primary goal of the Pono player. The fact that it can be easily transported from one SOTA stereo system to another is a bonus, not its reason for existence.

Neil Young compared music streaming (Pandora, Spotify, etc.) to FM radio of old. He compared Pono to record players of old. The inferior sound quality of radio or streaming allows for portability and sampling of new music. The record, and now Pono, allow favored music to be experienced at the best quality the artist, producer, recording company, etc. choose to make available.

Pono is not seen as replacing iPods, streamed audio, or even CDs, but rather as a way to get high quality recordings to play through high quality systems. Perhaps more important, the support for Pono, or similar devices, sends a message to the music industry that there is a demand for well recorded, excellent performances with all the dynamics and frequency range the digital medium permits.

If those who demand more than is presently available from CDs, mp3s, etc. show support for Pono (or some other serious alternative) the likelihood that quality digital recordings will be available at a reasonable cost increases. If there isn't strong support, the industry could easily conclude that Mp3s are enough.

One poster suggested that careful cleaning and handling of vinyl can remove ticks and pops. I disagree. Anyone who has followed the thread: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/145942-the-best-way-to-clean-preserve-vinyl/ understands the length to which I will go to extract the best possible sound from vinyl; and to help others do the same. Despite best efforts, vinyl is inherently prone to audio artifacts to which digital is not.

I repeat, excellent vinyl recordings are excellent for many reasons, but being recorded to a vinyl disc is not one of them. The same information could be recorded and played back digitally without any possibility of surface noise, static, dirt, worn stylus, etc. The best digital has the potential to eclipse the best analog. What prevents that is a perception that the market is satisfied with mp3s, streamed audio, etc., and that consumers won't support the additional expense (or large file sizes) of high quality digital recordings of excellent music.

Neil Young is trying to alter that perception. I wish him well. For $300 (about the cost of a very good cartridge) I'm willing to sample the product before condemning it. At the least it shows an interest in quality recorded music. The original goal of Pono on Kickstarter was $800,000.00, as of the time this was typed,"$3,786,498 pledged of $800,000 goal." If nothing else, the powers that be in the music industry ought to take note.

YMMV

Edited March 16, 2014 by DizRotus

[imahawki78]

Welcome to the forum imahawk!

Thanks. I had an account years ago when I almost pulled the trigger on some Klipsch speakers but couldn't ever get logged into it so I started over.

[Tarheel]

Good post Diz. I agree with every point. Just now I am playing a 180 gram Tom Waits/Crystal Gale LP, bought new and played maybe five times. I put it through the record vac twice, cleaned the stylus with the ZeroDust twice, used anti static brush, played it at perfect speed according to the strobe with an $800 dollar cartridge and still the grit sound remains. The recording is fantastic but the surface noise is distracting. Too many disc are like this....quiet ones are the exception.

I have a large LP collection but I long for the day some format surpasses the status quo.

[dbomberger]

The vinyl bug finally bit me hard enough to go purchase a vintage turntable on Friday. I dug out, dusted off and played a bunch of albums I've been lugging all over the country for nearly 50 years in some cases. I'm very glad I did. While there were a few pops, etc. it turns out that there were far fewer than my imagination had expected, and of course the experience was undeniable. Somehow I didn't want that to be true, being an early adopter and strong supporter of technology over the last 30 years. If PONO would live up to the promise, I'd be all over it-but when I have the time and the mood is right, I'll be spinning some discs. I'm sure the vinyl record store owner will smile when he sees another old guy stroll through the door-though I know it's not just us guys (and gals) who value the vinyl proposition.

[eth2]

Astell & Kern

I have an Astell & Kern player. At $25 per album from HDTracks it is a bit expensive to replace lesser format albums. And I must admit, I am not sure I can tell the difference between good CD's and 24/96. And I sure can't tell the difference between 24/96 and 24/192 FLAC files.

Edited April 28, 2014 by eth2

[minermark]

IMHO it is not the compression to MP3, M4A or whatever, it is the fact that the song is mixed for factory car stereo and Apple earbuds. Its not the file format, its the mix that needs corrected. There is no dynamic range or space between instruments and vocalists in today's mixes.

Great point, that is exactly the way I feel about it, ill wait for one to come up on the Bay, they will be all over the place in 6Mo.

[Tone_Boss]

Diz, agreed. Vinyl is not sonically superior to digital. If someone says they think vinyl is better its because they think it "sounds" better to them, warmer or whatever, like tubes are warmer sounding (which is actually tube distortion). There are many limitations to vinyl, recording engineers back then were called engineers for a reason, they were actually engineers, they had to figure out how to fit the music on the vinyl which was not an easy task. The more bass on a recording changes a lot of things on vinyl, more compromises. Not the case with digital (lossless of course). I grew up on vinyl and all I can say is good riddance. For nostalgia purposes only.

[dbomberger]

I miss nostalgia, I long for it, methinks I'm not alone around here.

[NBPK402]

I had the opportunity to hear Pono a while back and I thought it sounded as good as any recording I had ever heard. It was definitely better than any portable device I have ever heard.

[mungkiman]

Every time this thread resurfaces, I think someone spelled "Pony" wrong...

[Islander]

I've got a pair of Yamaha PRO500 headphones, which are really revealing. When I use them to listen to a song on the smartphone from YouTube, and then listen to the same song from a CD, even on a cheap portable CD player, the difference is huge.

There's more detail, more bass, more music altogether.

Neil Young has long been serious about high-quality recording and has upgraded his archive as better technology becomes available. His Live at Massey Hall 1971 DVD is one of the best acoustic recordings I've ever heard, and I sometimes use it to show off my system.

I have confidence in his motivation and I'm considering getting a Pono player, although I don't listen to recorded music away from home all that often.

[NBPK402]

I've got a pair of Yamaha PRO500 headphones, which are really revealing. When I use them to listen to a song on the smartphone from YouTube, and then listen to the same song from a CD, even on a cheap portable CD player, the difference is huge.

There's more detail, more bass, more music altogether.

Neil Young has long been serious about high-quality recording and has upgraded his archive as better technology becomes available. His Live at Massey Hall 1971 DVD is one of the best acoustic recordings I've ever heard, and I sometimes use it to show off my system.

I have confidence in his motivation and I'm considering getting a Pono player, although I don't listen to recorded music away from home all that often.

When I heard the demo it was hooked up to a home theater setup running 2 channels.

[DizRotus]

I've got a pair of Yamaha PRO500 headphones, which are really revealing. When I use them to listen to a song on the smartphone from YouTube, and then listen to the same song from a CD, even on a cheap portable CD player, the difference is huge.

There's more detail, more bass, more music altogether.

Neil Young has long been serious about high-quality recording and has upgraded his archive as better technology becomes available. His Live at Massey Hall 1971 DVD is one of the best acoustic recordings I've ever heard, and I sometimes use it to show off my system.

I have confidence in his motivation and I'm considering getting a Pono player, although I don't listen to recorded music away from home all that often.

Islander,

Your reasonable and legitimate comment (highlighted in bold above) points to a weakness in Neil Young's promotion and marketing of PONO. IMO, the fact that the unit is relatively compact and portable is a bonus, not its reason for existence. Focusing on size (my wife has heard this from me for years) misses the ultimate goal.

IMO, they should start by promoting it as the BEST way presently humanly possible to play digital recordings which preserve channel separation, dynamic range, frequency response and all other facets of the recording process that contribute to an experience that is as close as possible to live music, when played on excellent equipment. To do so--under the current state of art for the digital recording medium--PONO must forego the relatively small digital files that allow mass storage and ease of portability, but which also necessitate compression and other compromises regarding dynamic range, frequency response, etc.

Under the best of circumstances, the retail market for the PONO hardware/digital process is extremely limited. Only those who are willing to make serious sacrifices (financial, room decor, aesthetic, etc.) will be interested in this digital device/medium. Many, if not most, of the enthusiasts who populate these forums are among the PONO target market.

To me, it's merely a bonus that the hardware is relatively compact and portable. The size will allow me to easily move it to the high fidelity systems of others so that they too can experience the benefits (assuming they are real, as I expect they are, but I have not yet head it) themselves. I do not expect to Velcro a PONO player to my arm to then go for a jog. The current digital hardware with its small size and mass storage will continue to fill that need, where portability trumps Hi-Fi.

PONO and others (supporters, skeptics and critics) seem to focus on the portability, rather than the absolute quality. It might be less confusing if it needed to be the size and weight of the MC2255. Then there would be no distraction caused by focusing on its size, shape and file storage, as compared to iPods and the like.

As previously mentioned, I "pledged" $300 to get a black PONO player. Kickstarter is predicting delivery by October 2014. To me, it was worth the risk. At the very least, the response to the Kickstarter promotion demonstrates a significant demand for high quality digital recording and playback. I'll share my impressions when I get my PONO player.

I truly hope those serious about experiencing high-fidelity (roughly translated to mean true to the original) support this, and/or other worthy efforts, to extract the full potential from the digital recording medium, something that mp3, CD, SACD, DVD, etc have not done. On the one hand, PONO is being marketed by artists and enthusiasts to enthusiasts. Even the, IMO, misguided choice of the name PONO (too close to porno, pony, pronto, etc.) shows a lack of slick marketing. On the other hand, it was slick marketing that brought digital music to the sorry state in which it currently finds itself.

YMMV.

Edited May 4, 2014 by DizRotus

[Islander]

While we're on the topic of high-quality portable sound, do WAV files sound better than WMA files? It seems that the Pono player can have enough storage space to hold a large number of songs in WAV format.

[LoudnClear]

Standard wma files are lossy like mp3s, and can be encoded at various bitrates like mp3s. If you rip the CD to wma lossless, that is equivalent in sound quality to the wav and the original cd. Lossless is what you want. Wav or flac. FLAC just takes up less storage space. Wma lossless is fine too, just has less equipment it can play on.