Youthman's First Heritage Speakers...the LaScalas

[garyrc]

.

... While Audyssey worked great on my Reference setup, just would not dial in the Heritage setup as it had my Reference setup. Got to thinking Audyssey could not be wrongs, especially since it worked great with my previous 7 channel Reference setup with MultiEQ XT32 on the Denon 4311. The K-horn fronts, the La Scalas rears, and three Belles (center and sides) all bottomed out at -12db. The four Herseys ranged from -3.5 to -6.5 dB. I did dozens of runs over a year pretending I just was not hearing right because it previously treated me so well. I finally in desperation got an SPL meter and everything came to life and was balanced.

An attenuator on each speaker? I am not even sure what an attenuator is or looks like. I would like to know more.

The bottoming out at -12 dB is what screws things up with efficient speakers. The following is based on Audyssey's solution for the problem,

I only know how to use the attenuators in Audyssey set up when you have a separate preamp/processor and separate power amps. The attenuators would go between the pre-pro and the power amp. If you have an all-in-one AVR, you may be able to use a processor loop to put the attenuators in, but some AVRs no longer have those. Sic transient gloria.

In-line attenuators have a female RCA plug on one end, a male RCA plug on the other, and a little 2+" brass or gold plated tube in between. Inside the tube is some circuitry that reduces the level by a certain number of dB. You would want it reduced by 12 dB. They are available for sale online. My audio dealer (an engineer) recommended double checking the number of dB of attenuation (since it can vary a bit with the amplifier circuitry on either side of the attenuator) by putting an SPL meter on a tripod and measuring pink noise with and without the attenuator. I did, and it was almost exactly 12 dB difference, and all of the attenuators measured the same.

You shouldn't keep the attenuators on permanently -- just use them to run Audyssey. You should use them on every channel, and the sub, so each channel is reduced by the same amount. They are cheap. When you are through running Audyssey, your super efficient speakers (Khorn, etc), which are more efficient than Audyssey planned for, will be turned down by the correct amount, rather than stopping the attenuation short (at what would have been -12 dB without the attenuators). My left Khorn got set for -2 dB (equivalent of -14 dB), my right Khorn got set for -2.5 dB (equivalent of -14.5 dB), and my Belle Klipsch center channel got set for - 1.5 dB (equivalent of -13.5 dB). When you take them off, the system will be playing 12 dB louder than Audyssey thinks it is, so Audyssey recommends regarding -12 dB on the Main Volume Control as setting the system for Cinema Reference Level (peaks at a maximum of 105 dB at the main listening position -- microphone position -- with peaks at a max of 115 dB from the subwoofer, just like nthe filmmakers set and heard the sound). People who don't have super efficient speakers like we do use 0 on the main volume as Reference level. Reference level is still too loud for most people, so most play at a somewhat lower MV setting. I usually use somewhere between - 16 and -18 (which would be somewhere between - 4 and - 6 for people with normal speakers).

Abnormally yours,

Gary

Thanks, Gary . . . A little google and you explanation clarified for me.

Running all channels except the fronts right off the Denon 4311 . . . just the fronts are on a separate amp. So, that leaves me only the fronts and sub to use attenuator on. And right now a I am not interested in separates all around.

Can you recommend a test DISK I can secure you mentioned in another post? And any idea if using the DISK would be an advantage over the digital SPL meter and tripod I currently have things set with?

I am coachable here.

Billy

You would use the test DISK with the SPL meter and tripod. The only problem using a test tone/noise in a AVR or pre/pro with a SPL meter is that that test tone usually does not go through any EQ Audyssey or another EQ system has imposed, so the SPL meter readings may be misleading. Using a DISK on a player, forces the test tone/noise through any EQ that is there. If all you want to do is get each of your speakers to the same SPL, the pink noise section of any test disk should do. Google is your friend . Stereophile makes several disks.

This, as well as everything concerning Audyssey, is well discussed in the second (very long) FAQ post deep into the AVS forum under "Official Audyssey thread," or some similar title. Don't use the first FAQ post(s), because they contain some misconceptions.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Garyrc

[Heritage_Head]

I think its because is it really -12 or was it trying to set them even lower and it maxed at -12.

exactly! my new 904's after maxing at-12 are still 7.5 db higher than they should be. so they would be at -19.5 if my receiver would go that low. letting your receiver set in accordance with reference may not be important to some but to my it is very important. i like to know that when i watch at -10 that i am exactly at 10 db below reference volume. period. so attenuators will happen for me eventually.

Do you know if macc set up is reference at zero?

[Scrappydue]

I'm pretty sure they way it works is that audyssey test tone is generated at 75 db and mcacc was generated at 85db. Either way they are the same at 0

[Heritage_Head]

I'm pretty sure they way it works is that audyssey test tone is generated at 75 db and mcacc was generated at 85db. Either way they are the same at 0

Derrick does macc reference at zero?

[Heritage_Head]

I think your scrappy but never new for sure

[Youthman]

Ok, so this morning, I set my test tones to manual and set it to the front left speaker and increased the volume till my SPL Meter read 85dB. Most of the speakers were very close and only needed a bump or two to level match them.

Here is what my levels were on the HK

Interesting thing is to get the SPL meter to 85dB, I was at -37 on my receiver. When playing a movie demo, I believe I only got up to around -30dB to be at 95dB. There is no way I could get even close to 0dB as it would likely blow me out of the room. Do you think the HK volume is set to have 0dB at "Reference"?

[NBPK402]

Ok, so this morning, I set my test tones to manual and set it to the front left speaker and increased the volume till my SPL Meter read 85dB. Most of the speakers were very close and only needed a bump or two to level match them.

Here is what my levels were on the HK

Interesting thing is to get the SPL meter to 85dB, I was at -37 on my receiver. When playing a movie demo, I believe I only got up to around -30dB to be at 95dB. There is no way I could get even close to 0dB as it would likely blow me out of the room. Do you think the HK volume is set to have 0dB at "Reference"?

We normally listen at -20db and I don't think we could make it more than a few minutes at 0db reference level.

[Youthman]

We normally listen at -20db and I don't think we could make it more than a few minutes at 0db reference level.

Glad I'm not the only one.

[garyrc]

Ok, so this morning, I set my test tones to manual and set it to the front left speaker and increased the volume till my SPL Meter read 85dB. Most of the speakers were very close and only needed a bump or two to level match them.

Here is what my levels were on the HK

Interesting thing is to get the SPL meter to 85dB, I was at -37 on my receiver. When playing a movie demo, I believe I only got up to around -30dB to be at 95dB. There is no way I could get even close to 0dB as it would likely blow me out of the room. Do you think the HK volume is set to have 0dB at "Reference"?

Youthman,

I'm assuming this info is not in the HK manual, although if it is written as badly as most AVR or pre/pro manuals, it might not help.

Can you email or Phone HK and ask them?

Isn't it only the automatically calibrating systems (like Audyssey) that make 0 on the main volume control equal to Reference level, and not AVRs set on Manual? Without a microphone and software built into, or plugged into, your AVR, how would your AVR know how loud the test tone in the room is? You know, beause you are looking at the the SPL meter, but your AVR doesn't know unless that information is fed to it. Automated systems, like Audyssey, lock your main volume control at 0, then adjust the level so 0 = Reference, namely 105 dB fs. In Audyssey's case, the pings will average -30dBfs, and with some other systems the tones will be -20dBfs. Without automation (including a mic plugged intor the AVR), I think 0 MV could result in any of a number of SPL levels in the room, depending on everything else (room size, speaker efficiency, etc.).

In response to ellisr63, using a system adjusted by a system like Audyssey, Reference level will make the dialog seem to be at a natural level, not unrealistically soft or loud. At -20 dB the dialog should not be at the plausible SPL of live speech, but quite a bit softer. Since you have La Scalas, was your automated system (Audyssey? Other?) able to pull your La Scala level on the trims down far enough? I think it would be considerably lower than -12 dB, unless you have a huge room and have your automated mic quite far away. Since some filmmakers use special sound effects that are right up against the peak level (sometimes using limiters to allow pushing the level up that far) people end up turning the MV down. One of the few movies we had to turn down was Star Trek: Into Darkness; the sound effects were shoved up against the top. One we wish we had turned down was the plane crash sequence toward the beginning of The Grey. Otherwise, we usually play movies at within 4 or 5 dB of Reference, and the dialog is realistic.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Garyrc

[Youthman]

Without a microphone and software built into, or plugged into, your AVR, how would your AVR know how loud the test tone in the room is?

Sorry for the confusion....I thought I had mentioned earlier in this thread that I did run EZSetup (Harman Kardon's auto calibration software) with the supplied microphone. After running it, you can go into manual settings and make adjustments from what EZSetup made. It was from there that I set the Test Tone to Manual so I can cycle manually through each speaker and make adjustments to ensure they are all equal volume.

Since you have La Scalas, was your automated system (Audyssey? Other?) able to pull your La Scala level on the trims far enough?

Yes, the LaScalas were exactly where the screenshot shows them. The rest of the speakers were very close to where they are in the screenshot. I believe I had to turn my surround backs up several dB to get them to match but the rest were around 1-2dB off.

I think it would be considerably lower than -12 dB, unless you have a huge room and have your automated mic quite far away.

Mic is probably 6ft - 7ft from the main speakers (this is temporary until I rebuild the front wall).

I did play a scene from transformers and turned the volume up to where the SPL meter was bouncing from 95dB - 100dB and it was still probably set to around -20dB on the volume. As long as I've had the HK, I don't think I've ever listened to it at 0dB. That would be insanely loud.

[wstrickland1]

Dude you've swam out to the middle since I left you so you're doing the right thing by going all the way to the other side...

[Youthman]

I appreciate the vote of confidence. I haven't swayed in my decision, I'm just not sure I can physically move the screen that close to my front row. The last thing I want is to feel like I'm watching a tennis match.

[NBPK402]

Ok, so this morning, I set my test tones to manual and set it to the front left speaker and increased the volume till my SPL Meter read 85dB. Most of the speakers were very close and only needed a bump or two to level match them.

Here is what my levels were on the HK

Interesting thing is to get the SPL meter to 85dB, I was at -37 on my receiver. When playing a movie demo, I believe I only got up to around -30dB to be at 95dB. There is no way I could get even close to 0dB as it would likely blow me out of the room. Do you think the HK volume is set to have 0dB at "Reference"?

Youthman,

I'm assuming this info is not in the HK manual, although if it is written as badly as most AVR or pre/pro manuals, it might not help.

Can you email or Phone HK and ask them?

Isn't it only the automatically calibrating systems (like Audyssey) that make 0 on the main volume control equal to Reference level, and not AVRs set on Manual? Without a microphone and software built into, or plugged into, your AVR, how would your AVR know how loud the test tone in the room is? You know, beause you are looking at the the SPL meter, but your AVR doesn't know unless that information is fed to it. Automated systems, like Audyssey, lock your main volume control at 0, then adjust the level so 0 = Reference, namely 105 dB fs. In Audyssey's case, the pings will average -30dBfs, and with some other systems the tones will be -20dBfs. Without automation (including a mic plugged intor the AVR), I think 0 MV could result in any of a number of SPL levels in the room, depending on everything else (room size, speaker efficiency, etc.).

In response to ellisr63, using a system adjusted by a system like Audyssey, Reference level will make the dialog seem to be at a natural level, not unrealistically soft or loud. At -20 dB the dialog should not be at the plausible SPL of live speech, but quite a bit softer. Since you have La Scalas, was your automated system (Audyssey? Other?) able to pull your La Scala level on the trims down far enough? I think it would be considerably lower than -12 dB, unless you have a huge room and have your automated mic quite far away. Since some filmmakers use special sound effects that are right up against the peak level (sometimes using limiters to allow pushing the level up that far) people end up turning the MV down. One of the few movies we had to turn down was Star Trek: Into Darkness; the sound effects were shoved up against the top. One we wish we had turned down was the plane crash sequence toward the beginning of The Grey. Otherwise, we usually play movies at within 4 or 5 dB of Reference, and the dialog is realistic.

I have the Denon 4520ci which has the latest Audyessy in it. When i ran it I think it showed -12, and -10 if I recall correctly. I need to rerun it with my 3002s but I should have the HT ready for speakers in a few weeks so I will wait until it is ready.

[NBPK402]

I appreciate the vote of confidence. I haven't swayed in my decision, I'm just not sure I can physically move the screen that close to my front row. The last thing I want is to feel like I'm watching a tennis match.

I say make the screen wall off of the floor enough to clear subs and just build a new wall where it is now... Then hang some black material from the screen to the floor just like the theaters do. When you decide to get some big subs then if they stick out you can make a false stage that would conceal them.

[Youthman]

Then hang some black material from the screen to the floor just like the theaters do.

It's a good idea but I would rather have a more finished look than just curtains, especially since I will have my equipment behind that area and will need to access it every time the HT is in use.

[Scrappydue]

Hey what's wrong with curtains lol.

[Scrappydue]

Oh let me ask youth, can you adjust main volume when using the test tone?

[Youthman]

Hey even you said your setup was temporary till you move into a bigger home.

Yes, I can increase volume as I'm adjusting test tone levels

[NBPK402]

Then hang some black material from the screen to the floor just like the theaters do.

It's a good idea but I would rather have a more finished look than just curtains, especially since I will have my equipment behind that area and will need to access it every time the HT is in use.

You could make a simple frame out of 1x3s, and wrap it with black acoustic material until you get bigger or more subs. Then when you go big all you have to do is remove the bottom part and make a faux stage... Of course you could make a faux stage that would conceal whatever sub you think you will go with and leave it that way until you get the subs.

[garyrc]

Yes, I can increase volume as I'm adjusting test tone levels

The Main Volume control, not just the trims?

The HK EZset-up may be quite different than the Audyssey set-up in Matantz's version. Did anyone ever answer whether the HK EZset-up gives you Reference level at 0 on the main volume? If it doesn't, maybe that is why your system sounds so loud at 0.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Garyrc