Youthman's First Heritage Speakers...the LaScalas

[Youthman]

Haha. Yeah, she's in top shape. She's helped me lose 20lbs and we just started doing T25 in the living room with a laptop hooked up to the DeanG RF-7ii. It's good for me but exercise isn't "fun" for me. And I'm definitely not a morning person. Past several nights, I've been up till 2ish working on design projects.

[garyrc]

I should be around 150" at 11'. Hoping that isn't too close.

You may find that when they don't use steadycam there is a little sea-sickness (screen-sickness?). Smooth dolly shots, zooms, and pans are no problem at all, but the bouncy stuff with hand held camera is a bit much on our 130" (true width) at about 12 / 12.5 feet. We've only encountered the problem in a very few movies out of about two/week for a year, though.

Our sound system is much like yours, with 2 Khorns and a Belle Klipsch in front, and a RSW 15 sub, and I agree with everything you said in your post. Although we (now) visit commercial cinemas only a few times a year, I'd say, if anything, our Heritage HT system sounds better, clearer, and more dynamic than the sound in a regular movie theater. If you had asked me about 2 years ago if I'd ever say such a thing, I'd have said, "Never!"

The weak link (although very good, amazingly powerful, and couch moving) is the sub.

[NBPK402]

Haha. Yeah, she's in top shape. She's helped me lose 20lbs and we just started doing T25 in the living room with a laptop hooked up to the DeanG RF-7ii. It's good for me but exercise isn't "fun" for me. And I'm definitely not a morning person. Past several nights, I've been up till 2ish working on design projects.

I'm usually up till 2-3am every day.

[Youthman]

Although we (now) visit commercial cinemas only a few times a year, I'd say, if anything, our Heritage HT system sounds better, clearer, and more dynamic than the sound in a regular movie theater.

I agree

The weak link (although very good, amazingly powerful, and couch moving) is the sub.

I'm sure one day I'll move to a horn sub but for now, the RSW-15 is doing great.

I'm usually up till 2-3am every day.

1am is typical, 2-3am is only when I'm hyper focused and trying to knock out projects.

[Youthman]

This evening I had a few minutes to re-run the auto calibration. After the calibration, I put in Transformers and went to the same scenes I demoed the other day and IT NOW SOUNDS TERRIBLE!!!!!

Just kidding. Just couldn't resist myself.

I did notice during the testing that made reference to Adjusting the EQ so maybe it is doing some type of EQ adjustments beyond distance, xover frequency and levels.

Funny how it chose to setup my crossovers:

L & R - 80 Hz

Center - 40 Hz

Surr. L & R - 100 Hz

Surr. Back L & R - 60 Hz

Wonder why it would select two different xover settings for identical speakers, especially when the LaScala has a frequency response of 53 Hz and according to other Klipsch documentation, the LaScalas are play around 70 Hz.

I'll probably bump the center up to 80Hz as well. Not sure what to set the surrounds to. They are rated at 50 Hz as well. Any suggestions?

After calibration, bass was more prominent and surround was even more enveloping (likely due to level matching all speakers). I'll use my DB meter to see how closely matched the HK got the levels.

[dtel]

You scared me for a minute.

No idea what it's doing ? I would do as you said check them with a DB meter to see how close they are.

Later you could always try different points for all three and see what sounds best, if they say 53 maby even try 60 just to see how it sounds. I say that because the LaScala has nice punchy bass you don't want to loose out on. But you never know what would sound best ?

When they get in there final spot it may be a little different anyway but it would probably be close to whatever you find now as best.

Wonder why it would select two different xover settings for identical speakers

Just to be safe use a towel to cover drivers while listening to others just to make sure all or working, that could have thrown it off, a wire could have come loose or something, having three across the front it would be harder to hear that than just with a pair.

[NBPK402]

This evening I had a few minutes to re-run the auto calibration. After the calibration, I put in Transformers and went to the same scenes I demoed the other day and IT NOW SOUNDS TERRIBLE!!!!!

Just kidding. Just couldn't resist myself.

I did notice during the testing that made reference to Adjusting the EQ so maybe it is doing some type of EQ adjustments beyond distance, xover frequency and levels.

Funny how it chose to setup my crossovers:

L & R - 80 Hz

Center - 40 Hz

Surr. L & R - 100 Hz

Surr. Back L & R - 60 Hz

Wonder why it would select two different xover settings for identical speakers, especially when the LaScala has a frequency response of 53 Hz and according to other Klipsch documentation, the LaScalas are play around 70 Hz.

I'll probably bump the center up to 80Hz as well. Not sure what to set the surrounds to. They are rated at 50 Hz as well. Any suggestions?

After calibration, bass was more prominent and surround was even more enveloping (likely due to level matching all speakers). I'll use my DB meter to see how closely matched the HK got the levels.

I set all of mine to 80hz.

[NBPK402]

This evening I had a few minutes to re-run the auto calibration. After the calibration, I put in Transformers and went to the same scenes I demoed the other day and IT NOW SOUNDS TERRIBLE!!!!!

Just kidding. Just couldn't resist myself.

I did notice during the testing that made reference to Adjusting the EQ so maybe it is doing some type of EQ adjustments beyond distance, xover frequency and levels.

Funny how it chose to setup my crossovers:

L & R - 80 Hz

Center - 40 Hz

Surr. L & R - 100 Hz

Surr. Back L & R - 60 Hz

Wonder why it would select two different xover settings for identical speakers, especially when the LaScala has a frequency response of 53 Hz and according to other Klipsch documentation, the LaScalas are play around 70 Hz.

I'll probably bump the center up to 80Hz as well. Not sure what to set the surrounds to. They are rated at 50 Hz as well. Any suggestions?

After calibration, bass was more prominent and surround was even more enveloping (likely due to level matching all speakers). I'll use my DB meter to see how closely matched the HK got the levels.

When I set mine up mine defaulted after calibration to left 60, center 40, right 80.. In the room my left channel is almost in the corner, the center was on its side, and the right side was at a large opening to our home entrance. I always thought the center crossed lower due to it being on it's side, and the other due to the walls and opening

[Sancho Panza]

Some Specs for the LS show they go down to 45, as does a Cut Sheet I have from circa 1990.

If you're going to set them at 80, I wouldn't worry about it; otherwise run again & see what happens. Not that that wasn't what you were going to do.

Hazarding a guess, 53 is the final spec of the last LS produced in 2005, or 2006; whenever they made the last of them.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Sancho Panza

[Rhetor]

This evening I had a few minutes to re-run the auto calibration. After the calibration, I put in Transformers and went to the same scenes I demoed the other day and IT NOW SOUNDS TERRIBLE!!!!!

Just kidding. Just couldn't resist myself.

I did notice during the testing that made reference to Adjusting the EQ so maybe it is doing some type of EQ adjustments beyond distance, xover frequency and levels.

Funny how it chose to setup my crossovers:

L & R - 80 Hz

Center - 40 Hz

Surr. L & R - 100 Hz

Surr. Back L & R - 60 Hz

Wonder why it would select two different xover settings for identical speakers, especially when the LaScala has a frequency response of 53 Hz and according to other Klipsch documentation, the LaScalas are play around 70 Hz.

I'll probably bump the center up to 80Hz as well. Not sure what to set the surrounds to. They are rated at 50 Hz as well. Any suggestions?

After calibration, bass was more prominent and surround was even more enveloping (likely due to level matching all speakers). I'll use my DB meter to see how closely matched the HK got the levels.

I have an all Heritage HT--11 channels. K-horns, Belles, La Scalas, Heresys . . . I fought Audyssey for a year. While Audyssey worked great on my Reference setup, just would not dial in the Heritage setup as it had my Reference setup.

I finally gave up and went to an SPL meter . . . result? Sonic bliss!

Before going crazy, you might just try that.

Sure, I should probably migrate to REW software, but not time for that for me right now. The SPL meter got me somewhere great without a week's vacation to figure out the details before enjoying a Heritage HT.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Rhetor

[Scrappydue]

My new ones set as mains 70 center 60 (closer to the wall) and surrounds 70.

[garyrc]

Funny how it chose to setup my crossovers:

L & R - 80 Hz

Center - 40 Hz

Surr. L & R - 100 Hz

Surr. Back L & R - 60 Hz

I'll use my DB meter to see how closely matched the HK got the levels.

Some Specs for the LS show they go down to 45, as does a Cut Sheet I have from circa 1990.

If you're going to set them at 80, I wouldn't worry about it; otherwise run again & see what happens. Not that that wasn't what you were going to do.

Hazarding a guess, 53 is the final spec of the last LS produced in 2005, or 2006; whenever they made the last of them.

It could be that 45 is @ -5 dB (the old Heritage standard), and 53 is at -3 dB (the newer standard?).

Audyssey measured the - 3dB point on my (center) Belle at 40 Hz, which was a surprise to me (I expected something like 55 Hz). There is a lot of loading, due to the Belle being recessed into the wall, flush with the rest of the front wall. It isn't quite flush mounted, but close, and this is the kind of bass gain one might expect in flush mounting. The Heresy II surrounds are measured at -3 dB at 60 Hz by Audyssey.

Youthman: If your AVR does apply EQ, and if it's anything like Audyssey, the other test noise (not the one used to EQ) may enter the system after the EQ (i.e., not using any EQ), making hand held SPL meter tests of questionable validity. If this is the case, use a test disk with test noise, tones, or warble. Since the disk's sound will be going out through the player, and into the AVR's input (HDMI?), it will go through any EQ that is being applied, and all will be well.

You probably know all this, but both Audyssey and THX urrge people to use 80 Hz as their crossover point. They have their reasons, including that Audyssey, at least, applies higher resolution correction to the sub channel. The LPF for LFE (a completely different crossover channel that is not on many AVRs, and that Chris of Audyssey wishes was on none at all) should be set at 120. This has nothing to do with music on the movie soundtrack, but special sound effects only. So, the bass music will go through the 80 Hz crossover to the sub, and be mixed with bass effects specially encoded onto your Blu-rays, which go to the sub if they are below 120, if your LPF for LFE is properly set at 120. This is what the movie people expect and are counting on. Most manuals do an even worse job of explaining this than I just did.

One more point. As a horn loaded Heritage owner, yours is a special case. Your La Scala is probably so much better at producing, with low frequency modulation and other kinds of distortion, the frequencies between about 55 and 80 Hz than your subwoofer is, you may want to experiment with crosovers of 70, 60, or even 50, for cleaner sound. But leave that LPF for LFE (if you have it) at 120.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Garyrc

[twistedcrankcammer]

I should be around 150" at 11'. Hoping that isn't too close.

So tonight, my wife was hanging out with the ladies in our neighborhood so I had some time all to myself to sneak into the HT for some more LaScala time.

I put in the original Transformers and played my usual demo scenes. I'm finally beginning to see what all the Heritage Hype was about. Seriously I've never heard more detail, clarity and presence in any setup before. It's truly amazing how sound seamlessly gets handed off from one speaker to the next but it sounds like it's just one wide speaker. I haven't re-run my auto calibration software but I'm guessing my surrounds are way too low now due to efficiency in the LaScalas but even so, there is such an encompassing sound that simply wraps around you. The RSW-15 is doing fantastic keeping up with the LaScala Trio. Lots of chest pounding LFE during the opening scene with the helicopter pilot, the scorpion in the dessert scene and in the Ironhide flip scene near the end of the movie. One scene that really surprised me was the scene where they are all on the highway and the decepticons come up from behind and attack on the interstate. That scene has always been a good demo but this time, when the car skids, the tires are so crisp and detailed. When they transform, you hear every clank, ting and ratchet sound of the parts as they transform. There is just an overwhelming excitement from watching movies now that I'm thrilled and have absolutely no remorse over letting go of my beloved RF-83 / RC-64.

Next I put in Fast Five and jumped to the Bank Vault scene. Talk about an adrenaline, heart pounding experience. Again, just so much detail and when the cars and the vault pans from one speaker to the next, you cannot tell where the "handoff" is because it's such a smooth, effortless transition.

Another thing I'm really noticing is I turn up the volume to where I usually listen to and find myself having to turn it down. These seem to get very loud, very quick.

Many times I read that Reference = HT and Heritage = Music. I would like to state that I firmly believe these LaScalas sound fantastic for both music and for HT.

I'm now enjoying an entirely new experience in my HT. I wish you guys could all come over to hear what I'm hearing. I truly believe it's that good.

I've always said similar to what you are now experiencing Youth! If a speaker is more detailed for music, how can it not be better sounding in a home theatre.

YOU my pad wan need to go farther into the dark side and experience The Jubilee Master!

Rog

[garyrc]

. . . I fought Audyssey for a year. While Audyssey worked great on my Reference setup, just would not dial in the Heritage setup as it had my Reference setup.

With our all Heritage home theater, Audyssey works very well. Much higher clarity with Audysssey than without.

Just out of curiosity, did Audyssey set some of your trim levels (especially Khorn/Belle/La scala, with their 105 dB@1w@1M efficiency) to -12 dB? If so, Audyssey might have wanted to turn them down even more, but couldn't. Audyssey advised me to run the set-up with 12 dB attenuators, then remove the attenuators and redefine 0 level to -12 on the main volume control, for Reference level. We run most movies at about -17. They sound great, and the whole system sounds better than it did before Audyssey.

Do you have Audyssey XT, XT 32, or one of the others?

[Youthman]

Some Specs for the LS show they go down to 45, as does a Cut Sheet I have from circa 1990.

DeanG shared this document earlier in this thread. Seems that the LaScala was designed to play down to 70Hz.

I finally gave up and went to an SPL meter . . . result? Sonic bliss! Before going crazy, you might just try that.

I'll definitely check levels with my SPL Meter.

The LPF for LFE (a completely different crossover channel that is not on many AVRs, and that Chris of Audyssey wishes was on none at all) should be set at 120.

I do not have a specific LFE xover. I typically set my sub to 120Hz and the xover in the receiver to 80Hz so that my sub isn't missing those 80Hz - 120Hz frequencies.

Your La Scala is probably so much better at producing, with low frequency modulation and other kinds of distortion, the frequencies between about 55 and 80 Hz than your subwoofer is, you may want to experiment with crosovers of 70, 60, or even 50, for cleaner sound.

I'm hearing different comments on how low the LaScala can play. Some say around 70Hz, others say 50Hz. Guess I need to get my Frequency Test Tone CD out and see how low they will actually play.

I've always said similar to what you are now experiencing Youth! If a speaker is more detailed for music, how can it not be better sounding in a home theatre.

I'm definitely understanding that first hand for myself.

YOU my pad wan need to go farther into the dark side and experience The Jubilee Master!

Klipsch Master Yoda, you are becoming a bad influence on us young Jedi's. Thought you were supposed to guide us into the light, not into the Dark Side.

[Rhetor]

With our all Heritage home theater, Audyssey works very well. Much higher clarity with Audysssey than without.

Just out of curiosity, did Audyssey set some of your trim levels (especially Khorn/Belle/La scala, with their 105 dB@1w@1M efficiency) to -12 dB? If so, Audyssey might have wanted to turn them down even more, but couldn't. Audyssey advised me to run the set-up with 12 dB attenuators, then remove the attenuators and redefine 0 level to -12 on the main volume control, for Reference level. We run most movies at about -17. They sound great, and the whole system sounds better than it did before Audyssey.

Do you have Audyssey XT, XT 32, or one of the others?

.

I fought Audyssey for a year. While Audyssey worked great on my Reference setup, just would not dial in the Heritage setup as it had my Reference setup. Got to thinking Audyssey could not be wrongs, especially since it worked great with my previous 7 channel Reference setup with MultiEQ XT32 on the Denon 4311. The K-horn fronts, the La Scalas rears, and three Belles (center and sides) all bottomed out at -12db. The four Herseys ranged from -3.5 to -6.5 dB. I did dozens of runs over a year pretending I just was not hearing right because it previously treated me so well. I finally in desperation got an SPL meter and everything came to life and was balanced.

An attenuator on each speaker? I am not even sure what an attenuator is or looks like. I would like to know more.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Rhetor

[Quiet_Hollow]

I'm hearing different comments on how low the LaScala can play. Some say around 70Hz, others say 50Hz. Guess I need to get my Frequency Test Tone CD out and see how low they will actually play.

Biggest thing here is to realize that what is colloquially referred to as a "crossover" is an assemblage of 4 filter networks. 2 electrical (the active high pass and a complimentary low pass filter) and 2 acoustic filters (via the in-room acoustic upper end and lower end response of the respective speakers in question).

Setting a proper crossover requires sampling of the the 2 acoustic filters by taking a look at what each speaker is doing at the listening position using swept tones. Choosing the appropriate active filters to achieve the desired mathematical slopes that will yield proper crossover, then checking for phase at the center of the crossover.

If that sounds confusing, it is, and it's largely why most component subwoofer setups sound less than ideal. This is not written in any owners manual either because the setup process is strictly case by case.

In summary, a "crossover" isn't chosen by assigning some value into a filter network. Setting 80 Hz on the AVR or subwoofer amp does not equate to an 80 Hz crossover. Instead, it requires selecting filter set points that yield crossover according to all things considered.

Regardless of what the La Scala play down to in-room, ideally they should be filtered such that they are rolling off somewhere's between 80-100 Hz. 100 Hz is better (more system headroom), but 80 Hz is typically easier to achieve in practice (less stringent setup technique required). This keeps the mains & subs out of one anothers' chili by allowing each unit to stick to what they do best. It may require a filter at 80 Hz, maybe 100 Hz, or perhaps none at all.

[Scrappydue]

With our all Heritage home theater, Audyssey works very well. Much higher clarity with Audysssey than without.

Just out of curiosity, did Audyssey set some of your trim levels (especially Khorn/Belle/La scala, with their 105 dB@1w@1M efficiency) to -12 dB? If so, Audyssey might have wanted to turn them down even more, but couldn't. Audyssey advised me to run the set-up with 12 dB attenuators, then remove the attenuators and redefine 0 level to -12 on the main volume control, for Reference level. We run most movies at about -17. They sound great, and the whole system sounds better than it did before Audyssey.

Do you have Audyssey XT, XT 32, or one of the others?

.

I fought Audyssey for a year. While Audyssey worked great on my Reference setup, just would not dial in the Heritage setup as it had my Reference setup. Got to thinking Audyssey could not be wrongs, especially since it worked great with my previous 7 channel Reference setup with MultiEQ XT32 on the Denon 4311. The K-horn fronts, the La Scalas rears, and three Belles (center and sides) all bottomed out at -12db. The four Herseys ranged from -3.5 to -6.5 dB. I did dozens of runs over a year pretending I just was not hearing right because it previously treated me so well. I finally in desperation got an SPL meter and everything came to life and was balanced.

An attenuator on each speaker? I am not even sure what an attenuator is or looks like. I would like to know more.

thats because of the efficency. All my channels now max out at -12db with the new cinema gear. I just have to use an spl after and level the back four and sub to the front three. Throws my reference off by about 7.5 db. I plan on getting some 12db rca attenuators. That SHOULD put everything within a tune able spl range for my avr/amp combo.

[Sancho Panza]

Garyrc, the 45 IS +-5,

But, the 53 IS +-4, as listed on Klipsch.com

[Sancho Panza]

LSII:

51Hz-17kHz +/- 4dB