Heritage_Head Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 One of the advantages to some of the others ones like maac that do allow tweaking after it runs its set up. Not trying to state one is better than another. Just saying one of my dislikes with it. I have a few things I don't like about maac as well. A watch tells time but sometimes we still have to tell it what time it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) I don't currently have a avr with it. But the few I have used and did set ups on did not allow me to change the eq after set up was done. Unless I turned it off and went to a manual set up. Is this the same on the newer better ones? My NAD T175HD pre/pro does allow "on the fly" changes to Audyssey MultEQ XT(distance, volume, crossover, etc.) as well as tone control settings. It will not disable Audyssey unless I tell it to. This is also true for NAD's upper tier AVR's(T787, T777, etc.) with the same AM200 audio card. Bill Edited April 30, 2014 by willland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Same thing with my Denon. You either take what Audyssey gives you or you lose it by going in to manual EQ mode. Like mentioned ealier, you can get the Audyssey Pro and have some room for adjustments, but Im in the dark and don't know anything about it other than what I read a year or so on it. When I first bought my 4311, many people were complaining about the harshness it added on another forum. And some cried foul about flawed mics. After a while I figured it was just killing the cleanness on the amp side adding distortion similar to messing with an EQ or sending the source through it. I don't need or want any color added to my sound, but to boost things to get a flat response I guess I have no choice. If I raise my mic to the height of my K's then Im wondering how my much shorter LaScalas will be boosted on the top end due to their much lower profile. I messed around with Aud last night listening to DTS master HD, LPCM and even DSD on a SACD with Aud and without. At lower levels its not bad and wakes up things a bit, but it still just makes things so wet that you cant hear the delicates on lossless recordings. Now a really bad 128K file it shines up just fine, but I just cant get a very mild change that a really good recording needs. BTW, thanks for all the great info guys. I think they are being a little stubborn to think that their settings need no tweaking. ( or a little s..t don't stink ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) I don't currently have a avr with it. But the few I have used and did set ups on did not allow me to change the eq after set up was done. Unless I turned it off and went to a manual set up. Is this the same on the newer better ones? My NAD T175HD pre/pro does allow "on the fly" changes to Audyssey MultEQ XT(distance, volume, crossover, etc.) as well as tone control settings. It will not disable Audyssey unless I tell it to. This is also true for NAD's upper tier AVR's(T787, T777, etc.) with the same AM200 audio card. Bill Yes very nice they should do that on all of them. I was going to ask if that one did as well. I have not had my hands on that eq but would love to try it . People seem to think its the best eq on the market. And I have no argument that its not Edited April 30, 2014 by reference_head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 All of this room correction, no matter what brand or version is pretty much worthless with so many variables involved unless you can take a real response measurement on the room after the changes, correct? I mean there are a few people that love treble and love jacking the bass, but getting a flat room response couldn't be more in the wrong direction. Its like someone plugged in a 1980's EQ into my source and just made a big smiley face with the adjustments and voila, perfection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelandKlipsch Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 You can do that with anthems arc and then re-load from your pc to pre amp with real in room response stats. It's a nice feature. I figure that xt is a nice tool as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) Right on! Not trying to start a war by any means. Everybody has there own opinion. I am with you. I still tweak a bit by ear after finalizing Audyssey. Bill This is closest to my experience. My Onk 717 has the Audyssey 2EQ, which means no auto-EQ, and it measures up to 3 listening positions. I have a few opinions. I have a med sized living room 5.1, and the Audyssey works, but probably doesn't shine the best in this environment. That's because the speakers are relatively close together, and syncing everything by ear isn't all that hard. It really does do something when it comes to the TIMING of when the sound hits the LP. I would think the further your speakers are apart, and especially if they are not all exactly the same, the Audyssey melds them into a single listening unit. Even with my living room setup, Audyssey set the L/R speakers at different distances, 13.0 feet, and 13.5, and sets the sub at 25.0 feet, even though it is physically about 14 feet. I would not be able to set all that up, especially the sub, by ear. The other thing Audyssey does is set up the speakers according to REFERENCE level, which in my AVR is pre-set to 82. That means my L/R speakers might be set at -10 db, so they are properly set to reference when I go to 82 on the Onk. I would absolutely use the Audyssey for initial setup if you have it in your AVR, then AFTER that, let your ears be your guide. And if you don't like the way it sounds, simply don't use it. Edited April 30, 2014 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 I think I may try downloading REW to my laptop and using my Audyssey mic to try and get a current reading. Does anyone have any advice on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I think I may try downloading REW to my laptop and using my Audyssey mic to try and get a current reading. Does anyone have any advice on this? Don't use the Audyssey mic for REW. I believe the Audyssey mic is calibrated for your AVR and will not give the desired results. I purchased the minidsp calibrated mic for REW. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I think I may try downloading REW to my laptop and using my Audyssey mic to try and get a current reading. Does anyone have any advice on this? Don't use the Audyssey mic for REW. I believe the Audyssey mic is calibrated for your AVR and will not give the desired results. I purchased the minidsp calibrated mic for REW. Yes, the Audyssey processor takes the characteristics of the (cheap) Audyssey mic into account, and compensates for them. REW does NOT, therefore any results obtained with REW using an Audyssey mic will be very misleading. I like Audyssey XT with Klipschorns up front (with a treated room). While any use of the virtual graphic equalizer in most AVRs will turn Audyssey right off (and the Audyssey light will go off), the use of the regular bass and treble tone controls shouldnt be a problem. We found that the best EQ in our room is what Audyssey XT gives us PLUS bass + 6 on the bass control (not the graphic!), with the treble left alone, and the sub (below 80) turned up a few dB. REW and a ($100) calibrated mic shows us that the finished product conforms quite closely to the Audyssey Cinema curve -- Audyssey Reference -- from about 600 Hz on up, with a climb in the bass. If we decide to use Audyssey Flat for a few (rare) recordings that need more very high frequencies, and maintain our bass comp, the REW results look pretty damn flat from 600 up. Either way, below 600 there are a few minor bumps that Audyssey couldn't fix, and then, finally, the bass rise we imposed below about 175, or so. I asked Klipsch if there would be a problem if Audyssey tried to boost up the K77s above their upper limit of about 16 K. They said, no problem, the response will just stop, with no damage or distortion. To get around the problem of Audyssey setting highly efficient Khorns, La Scalas, or Belles at the maximum cut of -12, when the proper setting might be even lower, use a set if -12 dB attenuators in line, for ALL of the speakers, highly efficient or not, during calibration. The attenuators can be removed when calibration is complete, but then "Reference Level" on the Main Volume control will be -12, not 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted May 1, 2014 Author Share Posted May 1, 2014 Just re-ran it guys with the mic tweeter height for the K's. I ran four different spots in the front listening area this way, then I dropped the tripod and ran it in front of each rear LaScalas about 4 feet away for left and right. For the last measurement I put the tripod in the center of my couch a little higher than ear level. It said my left front was 12 ft away which is about a foot short. The right front 6.8 ft away which is crazy. The center was about 4 feet too short and get this, it said the sub was 28 ft. away. I went ahead and gave it a listen even though the numbers were crazy and believe it or not I think it sounded a tad less bright. Im still concerned about the crazy distance calculations, but they don't sound like they are out of whack, but Im thinking surely they are. I have some crude charts Im going to post and maybe I can get some feedback. The thing is, I don't know if these charts are before the correction or after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 The distance for your mains should not be that far off. The sub will generally show quite a bit further than physical location, but the mains should be very close. Something is not working as it should. Is there anything in your signal chain that might be adding a delay? Just to be on the safe side, you are pointing the mic toward the ceiling correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted May 1, 2014 Author Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) The distance for your mains should not be that far off. The sub will generally show quite a bit further than physical location, but the mains should be very close. Something is not working as it should. Is there anything in your signal chain that might be adding a delay? Just to be on the safe side, you are pointing the mic toward the ceiling correct? Re ran it and it got much more accurate measurements except for the sub. Its probably the best run I have heard from it and the change back and fourth is much less dramatic. It did tell me that both front speaks and the rear left surround were out of phase. I knew this was bogus, but went ahead and checked and wiring was fine. It has done this before on occasion, but has given the error with just my right rear. Maybe I have a flaw somewhere. Yes, tripod leveled with mic pointed at ceiling. This time I took measurements at the rear of my listening zone in a rectangle fashion. I did do some listening tests and its sounds much better showing a lot less exaggeration, but Im still getting boosts that are overtaking delicate passages that go unheard with Audyssey on. Edited May 1, 2014 by Max2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holtrp Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 I have been talking with derrick about EQ'ing my subs for the past couple weeks and am starting to study up on the topic of room modes, peaks / nulls, room treatments and EQ. This is an interesting take on Audyssey. http://realtraps.com/art_audyssey.htm Granted, it is from a website selling room treatments however the arguments make perfect sense. I personally have never noticed a night / day improvement by running Audyssey on my systems. There is a very modest improvement in sound quality, timing and channel separation, but I don't think it is everything it is cracked up to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 MCACC does allow one to see the before and after response of ea speaker in the room. Additional tweaking can then be done to get the sound you are looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted May 6, 2014 Author Share Posted May 6, 2014 Well I have done Audyssey for a few days with and a few days without. I don't mind it as much for TV material, although I wasn't close to being sold on it. One thing is for sure, its a no-go for music with me. Maybe it was never truly intended for music. Maybe coloration and filters aren't what a decent source needs. I have read and read and read about Aud. and Im convinced that what it thinks is correct and what it thinks you should hear, doesn't always mean your system or room is corrected. Timing changes, filters, bass boosts and mid and treble boosts may add dynamics, buts it sure as heck not adding definition or resolution and clarity in my main listening positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdrums Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Right on! Not trying to start a war by any means. Everybody has there own opinion. I am with you. I still tweak a bit by ear after finalizing Audyssey. Bill I do the same thing...run Audyssey and then check distances with tape measure, adjust crossovers myself and tweak the eq just slightly. Now I've been told over on another forum on a Audyssey thread that is fine to do but now I am now using the high rez eq filters in Audyssey if I tweak with my processors built in per channel eq features. So....not sure what to do....I with back and forth between my manual settings and Audyssey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Maybe you guys can enlighten me on Audyssey. First off, Im probably 95%+ music with my 5 channel setup. But no matter what source it seems its just a calculation jacking with EQ settings. It sounds like clarity takes a dive, my tweeters become harsh and my mids become compressed. Looking at the charts it looks like it is peaking the tweeters trying to get them to get flat at 20K cycles and changing settings all over the place. Maybe Movies would be a better for Aud. and maybe it shouldn't be used for music at all, but the so called "room correction" isn't making my tunes sound better. Should I get some software and a Mic and just get a real room reading? Fwiw, I listen to a lot of Multichannel Music and here is a thread I started about Audyssey Settings: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/148127-what-are-your-audyssey-settings-and-preferences/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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