muel Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I kind of like the steak sauce analogy. A steak is a steak... but add steak sauce and it is steak plus something else... you can't call it just a steak anymore. Eat it how you like. Don't be surprised by a little harshness given that this thread began with the original discussion about someone's new passive networks and their construction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul79 Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Mmmmm Steak sounds good! Think I'll grill some up tomorrow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I'm making myself hungry! Whoops... now we have to talk about charcoal vs. gas vs. wood and how we like it cooked. I guess we should save that for another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Does anyone appreciate the preservation of the original source anymore? 30 years ago jacking the bass and treble knobs was a sign of not enjoying what your speakers were producing. I understand the active guys having to go this route with bi and tri-amping, but isn't kind of a sin to run your source through a bunch of digital filters adding and whacking response only to make it gloss over or remove all the minute details and passages in the content? I don't have any experience with this, but I know my Audyssey XT 32 steals all the magic from my upper crust recordings. I don't care what REW says and how it changes my room acoustics at 100+db, at 85-95 db where I listen, a flat pure signal always brings out the little details you never knew were on a recording. This is the same as using sauce on your steak. Some people wont do it even if it did taste better. If its me I go with better is better. Very good analogy. I totally agree with you and everyone has a right to like what they like, whether its theirs ears or their taste buds. However, I bet the best steak you have ever eaten never needed any sauce, did it? When at a steak house if the waitress asked me if I want steak sauce after placing my order my reply is always....."If it needs steak sauce then I don't want the steak" This is my exact sentiments on active crossovers and EQ's....if my system needs one for me to enjoy it I'll give up audio all together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Does anyone appreciate the preservation of the original source anymore? 30 years ago jacking the bass and treble knobs was a sign of not enjoying what your speakers were producing. I understand the active guys having to go this route with bi and tri-amping, but isn't kind of a sin to run your source through a bunch of digital filters adding and whacking response only to make it gloss over or remove all the minute details and passages in the content? I don't have any experience with this, but I know my Audyssey XT 32 steals all the magic from my upper crust recordings. I don't care what REW says and how it changes my room acoustics at 100+db, at 85-95 db where I listen, a flat pure signal always brings out the little details you never knew were on a recording. This is the same as using sauce on your steak. Some people wont do it even if it did taste better. If its me I go with better is better. Very good analogy. I totally agree with you and everyone has a right to like what they like, whether its theirs ears or their taste buds. However, I bet the best steak you have ever eaten never needed any sauce, did it? When at a steak house if the waitress asked me if I want steak sauce after placing my order my reply is always....."If it needs steak sauce then I don't want the steak" This is my exact sentiments on active crossovers and EQ's....if my system needs one for me to enjoy it I'll give up audio all together. Why look at it as a need? People dont use steak sauce for that reason. They do it because it tastes better with it (for them). I dont think anyone would order it if that was the case. Im sorry but saying its only used when its needed is wrong. We use an eq for better sound. Not to fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 We use an eq for better sound. Not to fix it Aren't those two things supposed to be the same thing -- you "fix it", and then you get "better sound". Most analogies aren't perfect, and it applies here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 We use an eq for better sound. Not to fix it Aren't those two things supposed to be the same thing -- you "fix it", and then you get "better sound". Most analogies aren't perfect, and it applies here. I look at it like your xo upgrades. You dont need them but they do upgrade the sound. If you upgraded my cornwall xo they would sound better, But thats not saying they did not sound good before. So If someone adds an eq and is able to make his system sound better. How is that any different then upgrading the xo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Reminds me of a song from one of my favorite 5.1 videos by the Eagles "When Hell Freezes Over"; song title "Get Over It". Edited July 30, 2014 by USNRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Come on you guys are smarter than me on this stuff. I know you get this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Does anyone appreciate the preservation of the original source anymore? 30 years ago jacking the bass and treble knobs was a sign of not enjoying what your speakers were producing. I understand the active guys having to go this route with bi and tri-amping, but isn't kind of a sin to run your source through a bunch of digital filters adding and whacking response only to make it gloss over or remove all the minute details and passages in the content? I don't have any experience with this, but I know my Audyssey XT 32 steals all the magic from my upper crust recordings. I don't care what REW says and how it changes my room acoustics at 100+db, at 85-95 db where I listen, a flat pure signal always brings out the little details you never knew were on a recording.This is the same as using sauce on your steak. Some people wont do it even if it did taste better. If its me I go with better is better. Very good analogy. I totally agree with you and everyone has a right to like what they like, whether its theirs ears or their taste buds. However, I bet the best steak you have ever eaten never needed any sauce, did it? When at a steak house if the waitress asked me if I want steak sauce after placing my order my reply is always....."If it needs steak sauce then I don't want the steak" This is my exact sentiments on active crossovers and EQ's....if my system needs one for me to enjoy it I'll give up audio all together. Why look at it as a need? People dont use steak sauce for that reason. They do it because it tastes better with it (for them). I dont think anyone would order it if that was the case. Im sorry but saying its only used when its needed is wrong. We use an eq for better sound. Not to fix it. Because it is a need....hey these are my opinions you can take them or leave them..I've heard all this stuff. Time and again one thing always holds true..you can never improve the music signal with electronics only destract from it moving yourself further away from the music. So I am a firm believer in the least possible active electronics to get the job done. Fix the problem at its source kind of thing...if the recording is shite don't use it, if the room is shite fix it, if the speakers are shite fix them...ect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steven1963 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Does anyone appreciate the preservation of the original source anymore? 30 years ago jacking the bass and treble knobs was a sign of not enjoying what your speakers were producing. I understand the active guys having to go this route with bi and tri-amping, but isn't kind of a sin to run your source through a bunch of digital filters adding and whacking response only to make it gloss over or remove all the minute details and passages in the content? I don't have any experience with this, but I know my Audyssey XT 32 steals all the magic from my upper crust recordings. I don't care what REW says and how it changes my room acoustics at 100+db, at 85-95 db where I listen, a flat pure signal always brings out the little details you never knew were on a recording.This is the same as using sauce on your steak. Some people wont do it even if it did taste better. If its me I go with better is better. Very good analogy. I totally agree with you and everyone has a right to like what they like, whether its theirs ears or their taste buds. However, I bet the best steak you have ever eaten never needed any sauce, did it? When at a steak house if the waitress asked me if I want steak sauce after placing my order my reply is always....."If it needs steak sauce then I don't want the steak" This is my exact sentiments on active crossovers and EQ's....if my system needs one for me to enjoy it I'll give up audio all together. Why look at it as a need? People dont use steak sauce for that reason. They do it because it tastes better with it (for them). I dont think anyone would order it if that was the case. Im sorry but saying its only used when its needed is wrong. We use an eq for better sound. Not to fix it. Because it is a need....hey these are my opinions you can take them or leave them..I've heard all this stuff. Time and again one thing always holds true..you can never improve the music signal with electronics only destract from it moving yourself further away from the music. So I am a firm believer in the least possible active electronics to get the job done. Fix the problem at its source kind of thing...if the recording is shite don't use it, if the room is shite fix it, if the speakers are shite fix them...ect. I have nothing against this. And I have nothing against someone who uses active EQ to achieve the results they desire (I'm in that camp). While I can hear the differences my EQ will make, I am not convinced I can hear the difference if it was set to flat vs. not having it in the path at all. I have experimented in this area by using my preamp to bypass any extra electronics in the signal path so that only the amp and preamp touch it. Switching back to allow the EQ into the path (EQ set to flat) had no audible affect that I could distinguish. I do have a caveat with that: it must be a high end EQ. I had the luxury of trying this with two separate EQs: an AudioSource "EQ twelve" and a DBX "14/10." The AudioSource had a definite audio affect on the sound while I couldn't hear any changes through the DBX unit. For me personally, it is far simpler to make the changes I desire using a good EQ than to seek out the highest (most expensive) quality recording I can lay my hands on, rearrange my room and add sound absorption, and buy multi-thousand dollar amps and preamps. Edited July 30, 2014 by Steven1963 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 When at a steak house if the waitress asked me if I want steak sauce after placing my order my reply is always....."If it needs steak sauce then I don't want the steak" This is my exact sentiments on active crossovers and EQ's....if my system needs one for me to enjoy it I'll give up audio all together. But it's OK for a passive crossover to have EQs in them? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Honestly I'd give up audio all together if I was force to use any type of "Active" EQ.... EDIT " Active" added just so those that walk among us don't read things in that are not present... Totally ignoring all the stages of EQ that all program material goes through, including microphone pre-amps, the mixing board, 12Khz. boost for Vinyl, RIAA curves, etc. It's impossible to be a so-called, PURIST. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Well that settles that.... Yet there are those who would still disagree........ miketn Count me in. I'm not against anything that sounds great and can be proven with the marriage of science and good listening tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 When at a steak house if the waitress asked me if I want steak sauce after placing my order my reply is always....."If it needs steak sauce then I don't want the steak" But garlic and onions is OK, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 "....For me personally, it is far simpler to make the changes I desire using a good EQ than to seek out the highest (most expensive) quality recording I can lay my hands on, rearrange my room and add sound absorption, and buy multi-thousand dollar amps and preamps. " Sometimes the higher quality recording is actually much cheaper and found on Ebay, Amazon used, or a garage sale. For example, some SACD's and high res versions have been pretty good but some actually fall short of older CD releases. It does take some effort but for some music that you really like it can be worth it to track down the best you can. Don't skip room treatments and even moving things around some (if possible)! EQ isn't going to fix nulls... you are going to have to move around to find the best spot. Crank up the EQ to try to fix that quiet frequency and your just making the null stronger and maybe even creating more distortion. Your distance from the back wall is going to make more difference here. To be clear, I don't know near as much as many here especially on the technical side but I do know what I have experienced with trial and error and head scratching. Oh, I like my steak with a little salt and pepper. Sometimes, I'll put on a little Cavender's Greek seasoning (another product of Arkansas). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Does anyone appreciate the preservation of the original source anymore? 30 years ago jacking the bass and treble knobs was a sign of not enjoying what your speakers were producing. I understand the active guys having to go this route with bi and tri-amping, but isn't kind of a sin to run your source through a bunch of digital filters adding and whacking response only to make it gloss over or remove all the minute details and passages in the content? I don't have any experience with this, but I know my Audyssey XT 32 steals all the magic from my upper crust recordings. I don't care what REW says and how it changes my room acoustics at 100+db, at 85-95 db where I listen, a flat pure signal always brings out the little details you never knew were on a recording. This is America and I believe everyone is entitled to their own ridiculous opinion, including me. I prefer the magic of Audyssey XT/32 on top of my passive and active hybrid networks, cleaning up the most important component of all the ROOM and the less than perfect time and frequency repsonse of my otherwise EXCELLENT horns. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 but isn't kind of a sin to run your source through a bunch of digital filters adding and whacking response only to make it gloss over or remove all the minute details and passages in the content? I would think if overdone like anyting, but doesn't a crossover change the responses also, I thought that was the reason newer designed crossovers sound better, it removes or raises where needed past what originals did (besides better parts)? Any crossover changes the signal doesn't it? I addressed this earlier. Sound passing through a bunch of digital filters and opamps doesn't sound as good as an analog filter built with high quality discrete components. If you use drivers and horns that play well together and produce a well behaved response, you really don't all of the correction (EQ). My favorite quote of all: "It depends." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Most analogies aren't perfect, and it applies here. Yes, it does. the word "analogy" is derived from the word ANALOG, which is all digital is anyhow, according to Carver Mead, the great inventor I worked with 15 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 When at a steak house if the waitress asked me if I want steak sauce after placing my order my reply is always....."If it needs steak sauce then I don't want the steak" This is my exact sentiments on active crossovers and EQ's....if my system needs one for me to enjoy it I'll give up audio all together. But it's OK for a passive crossover to have EQs in them? In most cases yes it is because its SIMPLE!!! (not all cases) and they are really not EQ devices as much as they are passive crossover point and driver matching devices... The crossovers I use ARE NOT EQ's by any twisted view of the word... Its all okay for the person owning the devices to do whatever they darn please. All I can do just like everyone on these forums is share my opinion from my audio experience. It really is sad that so many on these forums like to take offense when a person in the business posts something adverse to there beliefs... We all have our right to opinion. I was here long before I went in the biz... My opinion based from my experience is both EQ's and Active crossovers create bottle necks in the system they are used in....no amount of debating back and forth is going to change my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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