My new DeanG networks…

[LarryC]

I learned long ago specifications and techno babble that goes with them are completely useless in this hobby! Sure you want good specs but they will tell you zero about what something will sound like regardless of the type of gear were talking about.

Yeah, and besides, some people listen through the equipment and more to the music anyway.

Edited August 2, 2014 by LarryC

[Deang]

We use an eq for better sound. Not to fix it

Aren't those two things supposed to be the same thing -- you "fix it", and then you get "better sound".

Most analogies aren't perfect, and it applies here.

I look at it like your xo upgrades. You dont need them but they do upgrade the sound. If you upgraded my cornwall xo they would sound better, But thats not saying they did not sound good before.

So If someone adds an eq and is able to make his system sound better. How is that any different then upgrading the xo.

It's very different.

The drivers in the Heritage stuff are relatively well behaved, so you can just string them together. The crossover point, for the most part, is determined by the horns themselves, so from the electrical side of things, the networks are pretty simple, which allows me to use some of the highest quality parts available to let the signal pass through.

A better example would be this -- could you elevate the quality of the sound by adding an EQ to your Cornwall system? No, you can't, because some of the parts in those crossovers have reach the end of their life cycle, and depending on what year they were made, the quality of some of those parts weren't that great to begin with. The sound is a little grungy and closed in sounding, and you decide to add an EQ "to fix it". The EQ is of relatively low quality too, because both the input and output stages are filled with little dirt cheap electrolytics. All that has happened here is that the signal path went from dirty to dirtier -- and the EQ is only being used as an extended set of tone controls to boost the bass and reduce the midrange and treble output because it's either driving a spike into the ear or sounds like sandpaper.

Some of us assign a different definition to "better sound quality" than others here.

Sometimes you can clean up the signal path, and still miss the mark. I sometimes do work on the crossovers that were just purchased. Your new purchase is an example of that. Klipsch routinely makes use of polyester capacitors. They sound okay, there's nothing wrong with them, They are probably fine for HT use, where you're mostly absorbed with what's going on with the screen, and as long as the room is shaking appropriately -- who cares. However, the high frequencies are going to sound pretty raw compared to what you would get out of a good film cap. There are other examples, but I think you get the general idea.

A lot of people have no real baseline with which to compare. Since they haven't heard anything built by me, they can only go by what they have, or by what they've read. I've built crossovers using different parts, so I'm pretty comfortable with any claims I make.

At this point we begin to overlap with the other thread. We have equalizers, both electronic and passive, and then we have the active or electronic crossovers, which incorporate EQ functions into their feature sets. If you think my top tier crossovers are expensive, you should check out the prices of high quality consumer versions -- along with the extra amplifiers you're going to need.

Most here haven't heard or experienced a tube driven system using a really good set of passives, and even that world has several levels of transparency and musicality associated with it. There is "musical" solid state too, it's just harder to find -- most tube gear is musical by default.

I love the pro world, where you get two cheap polyester capacitors and a huge piece of crap wirewound resistor run in series with the compression driver. The upgrade path is to use an active unit filled from one end to the other with electrolytics and nasty metal film resistors. That world is for people who believe there is no real audible difference between parts, and they believe this in spite of the fact that there are real measurable differences.

Depending on what you're trying to do, you may end up forced into combining pro and consumer level equipment. The signal is run through the low quality parts, which is damage that can't be undone -- and then you have to deal with the gain structure issues. Have fun with that.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-receivers-processors-amps/35677-gain-structure-home-theater-getting-most-pro-audio-equipment-your-system.html

[NOSValves]

Thanks Dean I read a small part of the first post in that thread and had to grab the aspirin...

[Coytee]

Most here haven't heard or experienced a tube driven system using a really good set of passives, and even that world has several levels of transparency and musicality associated with it. There is "musical" solid state too, it's just harder to find -- most tube gear is musical by default.

I've had a pair of McIntosh MC-30's, (edited to add) a McIntosh MC2102, Wright 2A3, Transcendent SE-OTL, Viva 300B SET and Quad amps all plumbed to a Peach preamp playing into Khorns that had Al's extreme slope crossover and (when I rewired) a JBL-2404.

I don't miss any of that simplicity (nor cost) for the better sound I have today.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Coytee

[Heritage_Head]

We use an eq for better sound. Not to fix it

Aren't those two things supposed to be the same thing -- you "fix it", and then you get "better sound".

Most analogies aren't perfect, and it applies here.

I look at it like your xo upgrades. You dont need them but they do upgrade the sound. If you upgraded my cornwall xo they would sound better, But thats not saying they did not sound good before.

So If someone adds an eq and is able to make his system sound better. How is that any different then upgrading the xo.

It's very different.

The drivers in the Heritage stuff are relatively well behaved, so you can just string them together. The crossover point, for the most part, is determined by the horns themselves, so from the electrical side of things, the networks are pretty simple, which allows me to use some of the highest quality parts available to let the signal pass through.

A better example would be this -- could you elevate the quality of the sound by adding an EQ to your Cornwall system? No, you can't, because some of the parts in those crossovers have reach the end of their life cycle, and depending on what year they were made, the quality of some of those parts weren't that great to begin with. The sound is a little grungy and closed in sounding, and you decide to add an EQ "to fix it". The EQ is of relatively low quality too, because both the input and output stages are filled with little dirt cheap electrolytics. All that has happened here is that the signal path went from dirty to dirtier -- and the EQ is only being used as an extended set of tone controls to boost the bass and reduce the midrange and treble output because it's either driving a spike into the ear or sounds like sandpaper.

Some of us assign a different definition to "better sound quality" than others here.

Sometimes you can clean up the signal path, and still miss the mark. I sometimes do work on the crossovers that were just purchased. Your new purchase is an example of that. Klipsch routinely makes use of polyester capacitors. They sound okay, there's nothing wrong with them, They are probably fine for HT use, where you're mostly absorbed with what's going on with the screen, and as long as the room is shaking appropriately -- who cares. However, the high frequencies are going to sound pretty raw compared to what you would get out of a good film cap. There are other examples, but I think you get the general idea.

A lot of people have no real baseline with which to compare. Since they haven't heard anything built by me, they can only go by what they have, or by what they've read. I've built crossovers using different parts, so I'm pretty comfortable with any claims I make.

At this point we begin to overlap with the other thread. We have equalizers, both electronic and passive, and then we have the active or electronic crossovers, which incorporate EQ functions into their feature sets. If you think my top tier crossovers are expensive, you should check out the prices of high quality consumer versions -- along with the extra amplifiers you're going to need.

Most here haven't heard or experienced a tube driven system using a really good set of passives, and even that world has several levels of transparency and musicality associated with it. There is "musical" solid state too, it's just harder to find -- most tube gear is musical by default.

I love the pro world, where you get two cheap polyester capacitors and a huge piece of crap wirewound resistor run in series with the compression driver. The upgrade path is to use an active unit filled from one end to the other with electrolytics and nasty metal film resistors. That world is for people who believe there is no real audible difference between parts, and they believe this in spite of the fact that there are real measurable differences.

Depending on what you're trying to do, you may end up forced into combining pro and consumer level equipment. The signal is run through the low quality parts, which is damage that can't be undone -- and then you have to deal with the gain structure issues. Have fun with that.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-receivers-processors-amps/35677-gain-structure-home-theater-getting-most-pro-audio-equipment-your-system.html

How can you argue your xo is not like an eq Dean. You eq the sound with your xo. You have even said so. Any turning up or down is a type of eq. When you lower the mid horn level with your xo that is eq the sound. I know your backing up your friend here but saying your xo is not like an eq at all is a really far stretch.

Edited August 2, 2014 by reference_head

[Deang]

into Khorns that had Al's extreme slope crossover

That's your definition of "simplicity"? I've also spent some time with those networks in my own Klipschorns, and wasn't very impressed with them -- I sent them back to Al.

[Deang]

How can you argue your eq is not like an eq Dean. You eq the sound with your xo. You have even said so. Any turning up or down is a type of eq. When you lower the mid horn level with your xo that is eq the sound. I know your backing up your friend here but saying your xo is not like an eq at all is a really far stretch.

More like a simple tone control, and you keep missing the point -- it's about part's quality and an unadulterated signal path.

I'm not "backing my friend", we're just sharing the same camp ground.

[Heritage_Head]

How can you argue your eq is not like an eq Dean. You eq the sound with your xo. You have even said so. Any turning up or down is a type of eq. When you lower the mid horn level with your xo that is eq the sound. I know your backing up your friend here but saying your xo is not like an eq at all is a really far stretch.

More like a simple tone control, and you keep missing the point -- it's about part's quality and an unadulterated signal path.

I'm not "backing my friend", we're just sharing the same camp ground.

You guys advertise/talk up each others products all the time Dean. Im fine with that but it is what it is

[Heritage_Head]

I'm happy you're enjoying those Steve, you did good.

These are Type AAs, but were sent with 15 ohm Mills resistors in parallel with the K-55s, connected to Tap 3 on the autotransformer. IOWs, the midrange is 6dB down instead of 3dB down. The resistor is used to keep the crossover point from shifting. If he wants, he can remove the resistors, move the jumpers back to Tap 4, and hear the midrange in all its glory. The resistors have the added benefit of reducing aberrations in the response due to peaks in the impedance caused by rearward reflections from the mouth of the horn and pinging off the phase plug. What do you say Chief Bonehead, do I have that right?

Most of what people like about the ALK and SuperX is the reduced midrange attenuation, which incidentally, is also roughly 6dB down, and the slightly elevated response of the tweeter. Just about everyone stays at the 6dB down setting, which renders the other 17 settings useless, unless you move to one of the big horn/driver set ups. OTOH, you could actually go to one of those set ups, and with the simple addition of a coil and single capacitor change out -- be off and running again.

Anyways, the K-55s are 6dB down, and still he mentions how bright and clear the midrange is compared to the way it was (as well as to the LaScalas he had). He even mentions that he thinks efficiency has increased -- and he's 6dB down!

Somebody stop me before I jump on my lossy cap soapbox.

This is a type of eq. Your own words

[Don Richard]

others like me can enjoy music no matter what it is playing on....I love music with my ear buds while mowing the lawn, I enjoy music in my pick up truck...I enjoy music out of the TV speaker system while watching TV.

Aha! This proves it doesn't take much to please some people. I kinda wish I could enjoy listening to music on lo-fi equipment, but when the sound is not right it seriously affects my enjoyment of the music. Whenever I hear equipment that has problems, I either fix the equipment or replace it.

[Coytee]

Most here haven't heard or experienced a tube driven system using a really good set of passives, and even that world has several levels of transparency and musicality associated with it. There is "musical" solid state too, it's just harder to find -- most tube gear is musical by default.

(bolded by me to highlight)

into Khorns that had Al's extreme slope crossover

That's your definition of "simplicity"? I've also spent some time with those networks in my own Klipschorns, and wasn't very impressed with them -- I sent them back to Al.

I thought they were considered a good pair, though not necessarily simple. I guess an interpretation of that could be you think Al's ES crossovers aren't very good. (?)

Tis ok by me.

I don't like mustard.....perhaps you & others do.

[Deang]

Well, they have an insanely high part count, and eliminate any/all overlap between the drivers. No one in the field is doing this, and for good reason -- but of course, Al's position is that "...speaker people don't know anything about filters..."

[Coytee]

I sent them back to Al.

I got a kick out of that one. My understanding is that you've had quite a revolving front door with various speakers, amps.... Perhaps you bought them, sold them, traded them or returned them. No big deal to me but, given that tendency, it might not be a surprise to me that you returned Al's complicated (and expensive) ES networks for something you could build far cheaper yourself and still have it meet your needs.

[Guest Steven1963]

I don't try to correct things that are not an issue. I've never been in the time alignment camp either....we're talking mini, mini, micro, micro seconds of a difference... To me it's just not audible..

That's what most untrained listeners say. You have obviously never heard a properly aligned horn system, and maybe it's best you don't. It would really rock your world.

I love my music! And I have neither the time nor the inclination to go to school to get trained to listen to it.

You don't have to be trained to hear increased clarity through the crossover region were the improvement is perceived when done properly because it is closer to reality.

What does the " I love my music! " have to do with this..? Do you really believe how one chooses to listen to their music relates to how much they "love their music"..?

miketn

I think that how someone likes music reproduced is a personal choice. When someone tries to insinuate that perhaps I'm just not properly trained to hear music correctly, I chuckle. That's all.

[Deang]

Richard, yes, I tried a lot of different preamplifiers and amplifiers. I started at the bottom of the Reference line and ended with the Jubilee. When I had Klipschorns, I built most of the networks (often more than once, using different parts), which included the Universal. Al sent the ESNs to me to try out. I called him and told him exactly what I said here and in other posts. I sent them back because I didn't like them. I had a lot of disposable income in those days, and buying them wouldn't have been much of a problem (which is why I was able to try all of those different preamplifiers and amplifiers). So sure, I've tried a lot of different things, which means my opinions actually might mean something.

Edited August 2, 2014 by DeanG

[Deang]

@Referencehead, btw, I only sell one network with adjustable midrange, and I offer it for those who feel the need for it, or are engaged in trying different horns and drivers, in which case it's no longer a convenience feature, but something they have to have to balance the sound properly (proper use of EQ).

Edited August 2, 2014 by DeanG

[Coytee]

Nothing I've said was intended as a cheap shot. My (honest) apologies if it came across that way. I was simply offering up another viewpoint that evidently doesn't mix with yours. That's ok by me. You just seemed to suggest that many folks hadn't heard a tube system with a really good pair of crossovers.

I showed that I did (my opinion is Al's crossovers are good) and that having walked that walk, I don't miss any of it.

I guess I'm not allowed to have my own differing opinion after walking the walk.

Apologies for showing a different opinion.

And I'll reiterate, nothing was intended as a cheap shot.

[Coytee]

Ironically that you mention my chain saw..... been awhile since I've used it and I did have to spend about 2 hours on the bugger the other day to get it fired up.

Then the backhoe wouldn't start..... another 2 hours getting the fuel line bled and battery charged so I could start it.

By the time I was done working on everything, I was tuckered out and came inside for a jam session.

It's all good.

[Deang]

Sorry, I tried to remove those comments before you saw them.

If nothing you meant was intended as a cheap shot, then it's all good.

[USNRET]

Alright already, just get the new DeanG's to me so I can compare to the ALKs I have been listening to for a few years. I gave up equalizers years ago.

Edited August 3, 2014 by USNRET