NOSValves Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 When at a steak house if the waitress asked me if I want steak sauce after placing my order my reply is always....."If it needs steak sauce then I don't want the steak" But garlic and onions is OK, right? Garlic maybe just a touch... Onions no way to over powering....Mushroom oh yea! For the most part Salt and pepper........mushrooms on the side. Never any steak source or other stuff that will delude the true nature of the beast! The same goes for music.....heck I bet I have owned 200 different amplifiers and preamplifier with tone controls and have never ran any of them in anything but straight up location in my life well except with those god awful factory car stereo systems.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Does anyone appreciate the preservation of the original source anymore? 30 years ago jacking the bass and treble knobs was a sign of not enjoying what your speakers were producing. I understand the active guys having to go this route with bi and tri-amping, but isn't kind of a sin to run your source through a bunch of digital filters adding and whacking response only to make it gloss over or remove all the minute details and passages in the content? I don't have any experience with this, but I know my Audyssey XT 32 steals all the magic from my upper crust recordings. I don't care what REW says and how it changes my room acoustics at 100+db, at 85-95 db where I listen, a flat pure signal always brings out the little details you never knew were on a recording.This is the same as using sauce on your steak. Some people wont do it even if it did taste better. If its me I go with better is better. Very good analogy. I totally agree with you and everyone has a right to like what they like, whether its theirs ears or their taste buds. However, I bet the best steak you have ever eaten never needed any sauce, did it? When at a steak house if the waitress asked me if I want steak sauce after placing my order my reply is always....."If it needs steak sauce then I don't want the steak" This is my exact sentiments on active crossovers and EQ's....if my system needs one for me to enjoy it I'll give up audio all together. Why look at it as a need? People dont use steak sauce for that reason. They do it because it tastes better with it (for them). I dont think anyone would order it if that was the case. Im sorry but saying its only used when its needed is wrong. We use an eq for better sound. Not to fix it. Because it is a need....hey these are my opinions you can take them or leave them..I've heard all this stuff. Time and again one thing always holds true..you can never improve the music signal with electronics only destract from it moving yourself further away from the music. So I am a firm believer in the least possible active electronics to get the job done. Fix the problem at its source kind of thing...if the recording is shite don't use it, if the room is shite fix it, if the speakers are shite fix them...ect. I have nothing against this. And I have nothing against someone who uses active EQ to achieve the results they desire (I'm in that camp). While I can hear the differences my EQ will make, I am not convinced I can hear the difference if it was set to flat vs. not having it in the path at all. I have experimented in this area by using my preamp to bypass any extra electronics in the signal path so that only the amp and preamp touch it. Switching back to allow the EQ into the path (EQ set to flat) had no audible affect that I could distinguish. I do have a caveat with that: it must be a high end EQ. I had the luxury of trying this with two separate EQs: an AudioSource "EQ twelve" and a DBX "14/10." The AudioSource had a definite audio affect on the sound while I couldn't hear any changes through the DBX unit. For me personally, it is far simpler to make the changes I desire using a good EQ than to seek out the highest (most expensive) quality recording I can lay my hands on, rearrange my room and add sound absorption, and buy multi-thousand dollar amps and preamps. +1 its a tool and nothing more. No one needs it. But better is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) My opinion based from my experience is both EQ's and Active crossovers create bottle necks in the system they are used in....no amount of debating back and forth is going to change my opinion. I certainly not be the guy to try to change an established opinion, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. In my case, I use bottles with much bigger necks! It's nice to have so many choices and combinations. In my case both passive and active Xovers AND Audyssey. Everyone, without exception, has said my setup is the best they have ever heard, including my best friend who has very sensitive ears and is devoted to only passive networks until death do them part. Edited July 30, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 When at a steak house if the waitress asked me if I want steak sauce after placing my order my reply is always....."If it needs steak sauce then I don't want the steak" But garlic and onions is OK, right? Garlic maybe just a touch... Onions no way to over powering....Mushroom oh yea! For the most part Salt and pepper........mushrooms on the side. Never any steak source or other stuff that will delude the true nature of the beast! The same goes for music.....heck I bet I have owned 200 different amplifiers and preamplifier with tone controls and have never ran any of them in anything but straight up location in my life well except with those god awful factory car stereo systems.... I don't believe in riding tone controls either. Flatten the system for the sweet spot and enjoy the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Funny... I can not live without them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I am a firm believer in the least possible active electronics to get the job done. Fix the problem at its source kind of thing...if the recording is shite don't use it, if the room is shite fix it, if the speakers are shite fix them...ect. Using the fewest possible stages is a good idea whenever tube electronics is involved. Thermionic emission noise multiplied through enough amplification stages to make a tube EQ would probably sound like Niagara Falls How would you propose to correct the time alignment issues in Khorns? To do so by mechanical alignment would require a 4 foot tunnel to be built into the two corners where the Khorns are located, then relocate the mid and high frequency horns there. With a digital processor it's a simple matter to dial in the appropriate amount of delay, with no butchering of the room or speakers required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peshewah Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I want to know how to eq my steak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I kind of like the steak sauce analogy. A steak is a steak... but add steak sauce and it is steak plus something else... you can't call it just a steak anymore. Eat it how you like. Don't be surprised by a little harshness given that this thread began with the original discussion about someone's new passive networks and their construction. I've got news for you; cooking steaks involves more than just taking the meat out of the fridge and slapping it on the grill. You could do that, but if you want to enjoy the perfect steak, you'll get better results if you understand a few basic guidelines for how to prep your steaks for the grill. I'm just waiting for the post where XO design is compared to a fine wine. We can really have some fun with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peshewah Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Dean g's crossovers and steak house Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I kind of like the steak sauce analogy. A steak is a steak... but add steak sauce and it is steak plus something else... you can't call it just a steak anymore. Eat it how you like. Don't be surprised by a little harshness given that this thread began with the original discussion about someone's new passive networks and their construction. I've got news for you; cooking steaks involves more than just taking the meat out of the fridge and slapping it on the grill. You could do that, but if you want to enjoy the perfect steak, you'll get better results if you understand a few basic guidelines for how to prep your steaks for the grill. I'm just waiting for the post where XO design is compared to a fine wine. We can really have some fun with that. I think I'll just sit and drink a beer while you grill. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Lobster sauce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) "Thermionic emission noise multiplied through enough amplification stages to make a tube EQ would probably sound like Niagara Falls" White EQ, the one with no power cord, the best. http://www.whiteinstruments.com/4220-archive.pdf They also made a 1/3rd oct. Edited July 31, 2014 by djk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) I am a firm believer in the least possible active electronics to get the job done. Fix the problem at its source kind of thing...if the recording is shite don't use it, if the room is shite fix it, if the speakers are shite fix them...ect.Using the fewest possible stages is a good idea whenever tube electronics is involved. Thermionic emission noise multiplied through enough amplification stages to make a tube EQ would probably sound like Niagara Falls How would you propose to correct the time alignment issues in Khorns? To do so by mechanical alignment would require a 4 foot tunnel to be built into the two corners where the Khorns are located, then relocate the mid and high frequency horns there. With a digital processor it's a simple matter to dial in the appropriate amount of delay, with no butchering of the room or speakers required. I don't try to correct things that are not an issue. I've never been in the time alignment camp either....we're talking mini, mini, micro, micro seconds of a difference... To me it's just not audible.. Edited July 31, 2014 by NOSValves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 How would you propose to correct the time alignment issues in Khorns? To do so by mechanical alignment would require a 4 foot tunnel to be built into the two corners where the Khorns are located, then relocate the mid and high frequency horns there. With a digital processor it's a simple matter to dial in the appropriate amount of delay, with no butchering of the room or speakers required. The alignment between the woofer and mid isn't nearly as critical as the difference between the mid and tweeter. That's one of the reasons I put my tweeter on a separate baffle and did a physical alignment, moving the tweeter ot that back of my La Scala cabinet. It was a very audible improvement. knowing there could be (should be) reflections off the top of the LS, I tried different materials on it to see if I could tell a difference. I couldn't, but it may bother others. Making that baffle was a lot cheaper than going active. Bruce 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I don't try to correct things that are not an issue. I've never been in the time alignment camp either....we're talking mini, mini, micro, micro seconds of a difference... To me it's just not audible.. That's what most untrained listeners say. You have obviously never heard a properly aligned horn system, and maybe it's best you don't. It would really rock your world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) How would you propose to correct the time alignment issues in Khorns? To do so by mechanical alignment would require a 4 foot tunnel to be built into the two corners where the Khorns are located, then relocate the mid and high frequency horns there. With a digital processor it's a simple matter to dial in the appropriate amount of delay, with no butchering of the room or speakers required. The alignment between the woofer and mid isn't nearly as critical as the difference between the mid and tweeter. That's one of the reasons I put my tweeter on a separate baffle and did a physical alignment, moving the tweeter ot that back of my La Scala cabinet. It was a very audible improvement. knowing there could be (should be) reflections off the top of the LS, I tried different materials on it to see if I could tell a difference. I couldn't, but it may bother others. Making that baffle was a lot cheaper than going active. Bruce Lascalas aren't as out of alignment as Khorns in the bass region so the only audible misalignment is in the tweeter. What you did is a good way to correct the misalignment with that speaker. Edited July 31, 2014 by Don Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Don't the big guy's at the concerts use electronics to adjust the delay? In the movie theatres? Maybe that is excessive delay they are correcting for. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I don't try to correct things that are not an issue. I've never been in the time alignment camp either....we're talking mini, mini, micro, micro seconds of a difference... To me it's just not audible.. That's what most untrained listeners say. You have obviously never heard a properly aligned horn system, and maybe it's best you don't. It would really rock your world. Amen.......... clarity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) That's what most untrained listeners say. You have obviously never heard a properly aligned horn system, and maybe it's best you don't. It would really rock your world. Amen.......... clarity. +2 Well said Don. Edited July 31, 2014 by Quiet_Hollow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 indeed... it ad's focus or resolution does it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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