Max2 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/avantgarde.htm Community M200 midrange driver, Beyma CP380M for the tweeter. Wow! What, if anything is known about these bass bins? All I know is everything they build is very cool looking and expensive. I always thought there were more negatives than positives to round horns. For close listening, maybe not. http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/basshorn-product-en.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arash Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/avantgarde.htm Community M200 midrange driver, Beyma CP380M for the tweeter. Wow! What, if anything is known about these bass bins? All I know is everything they build is very cool looking and expensive. I always thought there were more negatives than positives to round horns. For close listening, maybe not. http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/basshorn-product-en.html there are always moot point when studying round vs. other horns. round horns are always shamed for their dispersion angle and more floor reflection but there is something clear as Vodka about them. they provide less coloration due to more shallow angle and side walls. actually because there is NO wall in them! spherical horns are perfect except the vertical dispersion but I'm sure with good acoustic treatment they will provide best soft and relax sound than any horn with any other profile than sphere. Edited October 7, 2014 by Arash 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Round horns are fine, as long as you use them properly, no more than a decade (400hz~4Khz or similar). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 The round horn systems I've heard have been 4 or 5 way systems tractrix and le cleach. I really enjoyed them. They really get dissed on this forum. People should hear them before discounting them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) The round horn systems I've heard have been 4 or 5 way systems tractrix and le cleach. I really enjoyed them. They really get dissed on this forum. People should hear them before discounting them. I would never do that. I always thought they looked cool, but I used to play the cornet so I'm biased. Edited October 19, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) Nonsense. There are plenty of great uses for round horns Edited October 19, 2014 by Max2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tromprof Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Nonsense. There are plenty of great uses for round horns Great photo! When I was a student many moons ago the baritone/euphonium was always referred to as the "brass toilet." Apparently we weren't the only ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta88343 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) Does anyone have direct experience comparing the BMS 4591 vs 4592ND against the Community M200? Though it has been stated that the M200 is smoother than the BMS, but it does not have the extended frequency response as the BMS drivers do so what have you dont about the drop between 400-500hz and tapering off above 4k? The 4591 is about the same cost as the Community M200. Plus, I'm not crazy about drivers that have inverted U shaped frquency plots, and the BMS driver does have a smaller peak trough ratio. Thanks, Edited March 23, 2015 by delta88343 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 Does Community still sell the individual mid drivers? Cant answer your question, but if it bests the BMS 4591mid or the 4592 mid, you're in for a real treat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 http://www.fullcompass.com/product/346765.html http://www.prosoundservice.com/m9/COMMUNITY%20M200--community-m200-2-exit-mf-driver-mylar-diaphragm.html The Avantgarde Trio uses a custom M200 with the Beyma CP380M as a tweeter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta88343 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 The community driver is still sold. Just heard from their main distributor in the US about an hour ago. Its $345 plus $25 for shipping for each. So the question remains, is it better than the BMS 4591 for the same money, or as good as or better than the 4592ND for 50% less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 (edited) If you have the money to purchase the Community tweeter that was designed to run with the M200 (or is it the 200A, I have actually forgotten which), then it supposedly becomes the better driver by default -- but the tweeter is hideously expensive. This was the direction I had always hoped to go in, but took the Jubilee route instead (which I no longer own). Dennis will say that the Community driver sounds better and he's heard both. There is no phase plug (which is why the bandwidth is somewhat limited), but there is also very little actual compression. Most compression drivers use a compression ratio of 10:1. The presentation of the Community is supposedly more relaxed and smoother sounding. There are other tweeters out there that go low enough, including Bob's CT-125. I wouldn't hesitate to start there, but I sure wouldn't end there. Edited March 25, 2015 by Crankysoldermeister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Even with 3rd order, the Beyma gets a little "spitty" at 4kHz. I would personally love to hear the tweeter that Community uses with the M200, I'm just not ready to mortgage the house again to buy a pair. I may get stoned for this, but I haven't been really giddy over the CP25's. I know they are clearly a better tweeter on paper than the K77, but they overtake the K55 in output and are downright harsh wide open when paired with the K55. Im hoping the BMS driver will get things back to normal with a little tweaking, but its gonna be an expensive venture if these two drivers aren't worth the uno de niro to my weathered ears. Max you need a tweeter attenuator. Al makes a nice transformer based attenuator... the BMS is not going to fix the hot tweeter because if you raise the Mid to meet the tweeter they will both leave the bass behind.....they both need to be padded down to match the bass bin... I'd suggest padding them both down until the mids and tweeters seem laid back for a few weeks the then slowly bring them up until it sounds NATURAL too you. Don't fall for the "oh the Detail I'm getting trap" In my experience when you are stunned by the micro detail your hearing your too hot with the mid and tweet...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Oh and don't get me wrong I think you should absolutely get the BMS 4592 Mid.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 Even with 3rd order, the Beyma gets a little "spitty" at 4kHz. I would personally love to hear the tweeter that Community uses with the M200, I'm just not ready to mortgage the house again to buy a pair. I may get stoned for this, but I haven't been really giddy over the CP25's. I know they are clearly a better tweeter on paper than the K77, but they overtake the K55 in output and are downright harsh wide open when paired with the K55. Im hoping the BMS driver will get things back to normal with a little tweaking, but its gonna be an expensive venture if these two drivers aren't worth the uno de niro to my weathered ears. Max you need a tweeter attenuator. Al makes a nice transformer based attenuator... the BMS is not going to fix the hot tweeter because if you raise the Mid to meet the tweeter they will both leave the bass behind.....they both need to be padded down to match the bass bin... I'd suggest padding them both down until the mids and tweeters seem laid back for a few weeks the then slowly bring them up until it sounds NATURAL too you. Don't fall for the "oh the Detail I'm getting trap" In my experience when you are stunned by the micro detail your hearing your too hot with the mid and tweet...... I actually picked a pair up a few months back. The problem is with the Transformer version is the first step is -3db. I found this to work "ok," but I would like to have been able to try -2 and -1 as the -3 setting is a good whack on it. Keeping my mid at -12 almost takes the Beymas out of the picture at -3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Well that is because you need to be -14 to -15 down with the mid.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 That far down makes the bass sound a little disproportionate, but I have been a LaScala listener for quite some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 I'm down 12.5 db with the BMS 4592 mids and 3 down (using Al's attenuator) with the Beyma CP25's. I also moved from the Crites cast woofers back to the stock k33's for now. I'm pretty happy where I am with these settings. I didn't measure anything... this is just where my ears seemed the happiest. I can't imagine wanting the CP25's any hotter, personally. Craig, do you now have the mid attenuators with the 1db steps? I need to call you sometime and catch up... it's been a while! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 (edited) Craig's ears are midrange sensitive - he should have moved back to direct radiators years ago. The Beyma is 104-105dB, just like the K-77/T-35, but there's more off-axis energy coming at you, so the power response of the driver is better, and its transients are very crisp and clear too. So, there's just a lot of things being tossed at you that you don't get with a K-77, I love the sound of that thing - a great find by our very own John Warren. Now, add in variables like distance from the loudspeakers while listening, room acoustics, differences in average loudness levels, and then finally, the simple fact that we all just plain hear differently - and you can forget about making any solid predictions, well, at least with the Beyma The math says that -12/-13dB is correct. I've built seven pairs of crossovers designed around the big BMS, and all but one are sitting at either -12 or -13. One is at -13dB, and listens to different types of Jazz and Swing at fairly loud levels, but said he loves the sound of a forward midrange as long as it has some warmth and sounds clean. When I questioned folks about what setting they preferred, no one ever said they liked or chose a particular setting over another "because of the detail" - the answer was always to get the best balance which makes perfect sense. At the end of the day, the consensus all the way around was -12 or -13dB. -12dB is the theoretical ideal, and I recommend "Heritage-like" grill cloth available from Bob if you aren't using it already - it ever so slightly reduces the final output level and diffuses the sound a little. The first three pairs that went out were nicely build prototypes, and it was imperative that these individuals would be willing to help me dial in and determine the final output levels. So, these prototypes were provided with some flexibility for testing purposes. Each set of networks was sent with a pair of Mundorf 15 ohm M-Resist 20 watt power resistors, which were run in parallel with the BMS drivers to move the impedance down so the -15dB setting could be used without affecting the crossover point. To go back to the -12dB setting, the resistors just had to be removed. Most here know the drill on this one - we've been doing it forever with several of the Klipsch networks, most notably the Type A and AA. My friend Jan in Sweden was tenacious with this. Jan has at least four or five sets of networks. He has two from me - the latest iteration of the Universal and a set of Jupiter built networks for his BMS/Vtrac top section. After a month he told me that he was staying with -12dB because it sounded the best to him. A month after that he emailed me again to say that he had went to the -15dB setting again just to see if he would change his mind, and thought it sounded disjointed and like the horn had a sock stuffed in it. Edited April 17, 2015 by Crankysoldermeister 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 (edited) I was one of the first to get the Volti Audio upgrade with the BMS 4592 mid drivers, and like you using the ALK Universal's I was at -12db. I was not using the Beyma tweeters. I found them to be way too hot and used the ATP 200's for a few years, now I am using the Fostex 90A's and really love them. Most important though is now I have a custom xover and it is at -7db, but my room has been acousticlly treated and Eq'ed using REW software. I have a pretty much flat curve from 20-20khz with just a 6db slope from bottom to top. So you see -12db overall is a good start but your room will dictate where you end up if you start measuring!!! Just my opinion but I have the measurements to go with it.... One more thing I am using a 2wpc SET amp.... Edited April 17, 2015 by canyonman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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