Heritage and Atmos design considerations

[Heritage_Head]

Wasn't posted for that lol.

[Coytee]

 

Not sure if that is acceptable for Atmos... The height channels either need to fire straight down or fire up at the ceiling and refect downward.

 

 

Wouldn't it be interesting if Dr. Amar was right all along....  (ducking for cover) 

[babadono]

Even though I'm not a heritage guy (yet) I'd still like to see what comes around for the new offerings before I get my head to delved into figuring out ways around things.  Might even be some work arounds in the coming months that don't require nearly as much thought.

Methinks you're much too young to have your head hurtin when you think too much

[Jim]

I have enough problems with 7.1 so I just ordered a discontinued Denon X4000 for $729.00 because my old AVR is dying from a previous lightning storm. My side and rear speakers are hanging from the ceiling (too many windows and doors in the way) so I should already call this a Dolby 7.4.1 Pseudo Atmos Sort Of.

JJK

 

I did my 4000 set up as a 9.2 set up and an external amp to power my front wides as I couldn't do rear surrounds unless in the ceiling and with that there's only about 18 inches behind me. My side surrounds are about 6 feet off the ground and front heights 7 feet with wides about 4.5 feet.Atmos to me from what I've heard at the big box stores is not much better and by the time everything catches up,will be a waste in my opinion.

[Chris A]

...discussing the ways some of us Heritage lovers can have full Atmos compatibility...Atmos has some very interesting specs including but not limited to either ceiling speakers or corner speakers firing up at the ceiling to reflect the sound down (mandatory), two center speakers (optional), more speakers (mandatory due to ceilings), and timbre matching all speakers (recommended). 

 

The problem with Heritage and even pro and cinema Heritage speakers is they are big and boxy. They would make crappy ceiling speakers because they are too directional, or at least the horn parts are...In another thread, a person suggested Heresy's slanted atop Lascalas to reflect for ceilings. That's a great idea. It seems Heresy's are gonna be real popular because they are the most versatile Heritage. 

 

Thoughts??

 

This is actually a very good discussion area.  I note with some amusement at the Dolby specifications for home theaters that they do not specify for manufacturers of consumer-grade loudspeakers what directivity or coverage for each station in the room's array of loudspeakers, but I did find a little guidance here: http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-for-the-home-theater.pdf  It also is quite clear to me that cone-type loudspeakers are assumed throughout, and the "compactness" of the direct-radiating loudspeaker market is always there and assumed.  I assume that most of the folks here would like better sound than "small loudspeakers"--within reason.  To me, "better loudspeakers" generally means horn-loaded ones-like the Klipsch Heritage line.   So here we go...

 

 

Considering the specification given for commercial cinema Atmos systems, the home theater version of the Atmos specification is very weak in comparison.  In general, Heritage loudspeakers CAN already do the wide coverage of the Atmos specifications for professional Cinema--all except the height loudspeakers which require something approaching 90x90 degree coverage. 

 

So the questions are: "how do we bridge the gap in newly added Atmos loudspeaker array types using Heritage or Heritage-hybrid loudspeakers?", and "How can we match timbre of the existing Heritage models?".  Not as easy as what you'd think, but my approach would be to use Heresy bass boxes and K-510 horns for everything but the height channels by bi-amping them.  A passive crossover could also be implemented easily based on the exact compression driver used with the K-510 horns, since it is pretty easy to dial in the desired EQ and crossovers using an active crossover first. 

 

For the height channels, I'd look closely at the KPT-8000M with its K-802 horn, which covers 90x90 degrees, or just that horn (if available).

 

Just my $0.02.

 

Chris

Edited December 6, 2014 by Chris A

[mustang guy]

A recessed speaker is gonna have to be figured out. They did it for the THX series! Look at the beast KS-7502.  

 

I wonder if Klipsch would sell K-703-M or K-802 horns and we could put something together on our own...  Match the compression drivers used on the 2-way Heresy's into the DIY ceiling concoctions with K-703's.

 

Are we possibly on the wrong track all together? How far from timbre matching do you suppose the new KPT stuff is from the vintage 3 way Heritage stuff? With some tweaking like titanium drivers, it may not be a bad match!

[Jay L]

You guys have some of the right ideas going on in this thread, other ideas not so much. I know exactly what the home specs call for. Unfortunately I can not tell you guys for legal reasons. I for one can not wait to have an Atmos theater in my home. The testing we are doing at HQ is by FAR the most enveloping theater experience I have ever heard. I have only dabbled with the new upmixer (Dolby Surround), but so far it seems to be pretty good.

There is a specific response required for a Dolby Elevation Atmos Speaker to be released to the market, as well as other things. I can say that it kind of forces the hand of any manufacturer regarding what kind of speaker can be made for this purpose. I think I can give a couple suggestions without overstepping any legalities. 

In general any up-firing speaker would benefit from being highly directional to as low of frequency as possible. It is a good idea these speakers be able to keep up in output compared to all the rest in your system. There is so much I wish Dolby would just share with the public for all to have a better understanding of Atmos. I suppose i can drop bread crumbs here and there if people keep posting about Atmos.

[Chris A]

Thanks for the insight, Jay L. 

 

Why would you prefer up-firing (i.e., bouncing off the ceiling) configuration rather than ceiling-mounted, especially in terms of the participants hearing two sources from the same up-firing elevation loudspeaker--one from direct path and one from the ceiling bounce (with its precedence-effect implications of two sources separated so widely, the first being on the floor)?  It looks like a sound bar aimed upwards--and sound bars have never been my idea of "hi-fi". Secondly, with a soundbar or narrow coverage horn design, matching timbre with the main channels becomes problematic (at best) and probably impossible to achieve in application in typical rooms.

 

Also, when discussing "envelopment" (which I will correlate one to one with "LEV") what source documentation do we look to document why the adding the vertical dimension to home theaters in this traditionally horizontal-plane focus adds anything but "sound effects" and not "musical realism"?  I'm looking for that independently authored (i.e., not an advert from Dolby) white paper...does it exist? 

 

Why is Atmos so much better than say this?  (Inquiring minds want to know...)

 

Chris

Edited December 6, 2014 by Chris A

[Chris A]

On 12/5/2014 at 10:57 PM, Jay L said:

...I know exactly what the home specs call for. Unfortunately I can not tell you guys for legal reasons...

 

...In general any up-firing speaker would benefit from being highly directional to as low of frequency as possible. It is a good idea these speakers be able to keep up in output compared to all the rest in your system...

 

"Keeping up" implies three things for me:

1. sufficient broadband loudspeaker efficiency relative to the main horizontal channels (i.e., ITU 5.1 surrounding main channels)
2. sufficient radiating power without adding gobs of modulation distortion at rated SPL, and
3. low frequency directivity

Two ways that I know to handle these three characteristics simultaneously:

• using horns with large mouths to maintain pattern control down to whatever targeted low frequency you've chosen (and I hope that's far lower than 2 kHz), and
• using arrays of drivers like an antenna-like line array to achieve one or two dimensional directivity close to on-axis

Chris

[Jay L]

I need a lot more seat time before I can say I definitely prefer one style over the other. Both style of setups for Atmos has Pros and Cons. I would generally say that Elevation style speakers can make a more diffused height plane, while in-ceiling speakers can sometimes give their location away. Both styles work very well though for the desired effect. If the design of the Dolby Elevation speaker is made with high directivity, it will mitigate a lot of the direct axis information. 

I have had little seat time with DSX, I would say that is lends itself to a more discreet sound rather than a diffused one. It is a very good experience in its own right.

I think for the consumer you can get a very good immersive experience cheaper by using Atmos. If one simply uses a 5.1.2 with two elevation speakers, the impact of additional speakers in the room is minimized. In my opinion Atmos will make the largest impact to reinvigorate home theater in last 20 years. It will make a larger impression for the average consumer than the lossless formats of 8 years ago. 

[willland]

How about Heresys "Chipotle Style" in the ceiling.

 

 

Bill

[Chris A]

I would generally say that Elevation style speakers can make a more diffused height plane, while in-ceiling speakers can sometimes give their location away.

Thanks for the response, given the legal situation, which I do understand in terms of competitive forces on Dolby.

 

Now at least we have some idea of the main objective of the elevation channels: exceptionally diffuse sound. Simply placing a reflector (like a non-rotating Leslie cone) in front of a horn or direct-radiating cone mouth will also disguise the direct beam and spread the sound power around, don't you think?  It would also be very economical to manufacture for HTs, too.  I can also think of the old JBL horn lens of Bart Locanthi's design to do the same thing, i.e.,

 

Edited December 6, 2014 by Chris A

[Sancho Panza]

I want ceiling mounted downfiring speakers.

[Quiet_Hollow]

Atmos has some very interesting specs including but not limited to either ceiling speakers or corner speakers firing up at the ceiling to reflect the sound down (mandatory), two center speakers (optional), more speakers (mandatory due to ceilings), and timbre matching all speakers (recommended). 

I could go on for days about the absurdity involved with the Atmos paradigm. So could Dave and a few others here.

 

Like 3D, the problem isn't implementation. The problem is paying respect to the ear, how we truly listen, and fully developing the source material. Studios have consistently terrible capability in that regard. 

[dtel]

What's going to be the next thing to chase, Atmos + or ll version, and what going to be after that ? Probably Atmos THX Dolby HD, until the 2 version comes out.

If you hurry you might get in right before the next version comes out, maby.

[Chris A]

The problem is paying respect to the ear, how we truly listen, and fully developing the source material. Studios have consistently terrible capability in that regard.

One thing that I've noticed of late: movie soundtracks have been getting better - even independent/lower budget movies have been improving dramatically...probably due to the ease and relatively low cost of available enabling technology, and some to the availability of capable and experienced personnel.

 

One of the best soundtracks that I've heard recently is from an independent movie that you've probably never heard of: "Easy Virtue" (a Noël Coward play turned into a movie in 2008).  The soundtrack's realism and naturalness always gets my attention.  It's much better than even another major period film made just three years earlier - like 2005's Pride and Prejudice.  Most of the blockbuster films that I've recently acquired or rented also have excellent soundtracks, much better than even a few years ago.

 

However, I don't see the wealth of BD titles in Atmos yet.

 

Chris

Edited December 6, 2014 by Chris A

[Travis In Austin]

The KI series would probably be able to handle the demands of Atmos, including the Ki-172 for angled firing.

I have heard these in professional installations and they are breathtaking.

[Sancho Panza]

What's going to be the next thing to chase, Atmos + or ll version, and what going to be after that ? Probably Atmos THX Dolby HD, until the 2 version comes out.

If you hurry you might get in right before the next version comes out, maby.

I like to see what version II offers...

[mustang guy]

What about a horn firing up with a narrow dispersion, and a woofer actually ceiling mounted? It sounds nuts, but it seems like about the only way you will be able to have your cake and eat it too.

[ClaudeJ1]

I have two KPT-100's and 4 KPT-200's that would be great aimed up on top of big heritage, since the cabs already have a slant. Way cheaper than Heresys which is what I will use. PM me for a good deal before I put them in Garage sale. Looking to do Atmos late this winter with 4 Heresy's so I won't need them.

Edited December 9, 2014 by ClaudeJ1