NBPK402 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 There is no substitute for power....that's my motto. If the amp is back and working as it should just think of the dynamic range, power reserves and headroom this monster amp gives you. I say it's a keeper! No need for the power with LaScalas... Just wasting electricity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I would look for a AVP, and sell the Onkyo. The Onkyo TX-NR5008 is almost identical to the Onkyo PR-SC5508 pre/pro but with on board amps. Which in turn is the Integra DHC-80.2 pre/pro. Performance in the above three mentioned should not vary much at all if any. Bill Yes, but you are wasting electricity with an AVR over a AVP... Not to mention more heat in the room. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted March 17, 2015 Author Moderators Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yes, without the power amps in the mix you feel kinda naked, so to speak, lol. I can't let the Acurus amp go because It will leave an empty space in my console, lol. You totally get it. It would be tough for me to go just AVR again unless it was the behemoth NAD T787 or an Onkyo/Integra flagship AVR. I tried the Emotiva UMC-1 Pre/Pro....didn't care for it. Don't see myself going with a dedicated Pre/Pro anytime soon. If you are dead set on keeping the amp... I would look for a AVP, and sell the Onkyo. I'm not dead set on keeping it. Just don't want to immediately sell it and end up regretting it. It was like when I bought the LaScalas. I knew they sounded better to my ears than the RF-83's but I didn't want to let the RF-83's go unless I was 100% certain. Once I had time to really think about it, I sold them and have had zero regrets. I want to be that certain if / when I decide to sell the Sherbourn. The Onkyo TX-NR5008 is almost identical to the Onkyo PR-SC5508 pre/pro but with on board amps. Which in turn is the Integra DHC-80.2 pre/pro. Performance in the above three mentioned should not vary much at all if any. Thx for the info Bill. Good to know. There is no substitute for power....that's my motto. True...unless it's simply not needed. Trust me, I've shared that viewpoint for many years. The LaScalas have changed my entire way of thinking. They get extremely loud and very quickly, with or without an amp. If the amp is back and working as it should just think of the dynamic range, power reserves and headroom this monster amp gives you What if you can't actually "hear" any of those qualities? Trust me, this is a totally new philosophy for me. I've so used to pushing amps. When I had the RF-83's and added a Parasound 220 x 5, I heard a difference. More bottom end (even at lower volume), better separation of instruments and clarity even at extremely high volume. The LaScalas don't gain more bottom end when I add the Sherbourn because they don't have the capability to have a ton of bottom end. The horn loaded design will blow you out of the room with just a few watts of power. Instruments sound fantastic with or without an amp. Am I anti-amps....absolutely not. Am I discovering that the LaScalas are very capable speakers with just a solid receiver? You betcha! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted March 17, 2015 Author Moderators Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yes, but you are wasting electricity with an AVR over a AVP... Not to mention more heat in the room. Says Mr. Energy Conservationist with his 25wpc amps. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) . Am I anti-amps....absolutely not. Am I discovering that the LaScalas are very capable speakers with just a solid receiver? You betcha! You do realize, that kind of talk will start a bar room brawl in a lot of audio discussion forums. +++ You are kind of at the end of a journey I thought I was on. A couple of years ago I upgraded to HDMI equipment and anything with an RCA cable (except subs) was yesterday's news and out. My Onk 717 AVR did everything I wanted with 110 wpc, and had a pre-outs so I could add an amp, like your Sherbourn to really make my Klipsch setup shine. The problem is I am so satisfied with the way things are now, I don't know what more I would have by adding external amp power. I hear you being VERY honest by admitting there is nothing to be gained with your Scala's with the amps, even though I know you WANT there to be a difference. I want an external amp! I want to hear a difference! But if I'm being honest, I just don't think an external amp is going to help me, either. Edited March 17, 2015 by wvu80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yes, but you are wasting electricity with an AVR over a AVP... Not to mention more heat in the room. Says Mr. Energy Conservationist with his 25wpc amps. Yup, and i will be going to a AVP when i can afford the jump for Atmos and the other new audio formats... I think i can put some small speakers on the ceiling still (have some room... They will be hidden with faux acoustic panels ). Looking at 1.7 amps right now with 3 T chip amps, 2 i3NUCs, 2 Yamaha P2500s amps, Yamaha P7000s sub amp, 2 USB HDDs, and the 4520 at idle, and 2,1 at -20, and a max of 4 amps at 0 90% of all listening is at -20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted March 17, 2015 Author Moderators Share Posted March 17, 2015 You do realize, that kind of talk will start a bar room brawl in a lot of audio discussion forums. I can imagine. Might be along the lines of fancy cables and custom power cords. I hear you being VERY honest by admitting there is nothing to be gained with your Scala's with the amps, even though I know you WANT there to be a difference. I remember paying $750 for my first big boy power amp....a Parasound HCA-2205a (220 x 5) and posting my First Impressions of the Parasound HCA2205a Amp. Although there was a noticeable difference when adding it to my Yamaha receiver and driving my RF-83 / RC-64 / RS-52 setup, I was hoping I would hear $750 of improvement. It was not a night and day difference but definitely noticeable. The RF-83's are like the 7's and have low impedance dips that when driven hard, cause a large demand on the receiver's power supply. The LaScalas are extremely easy to drive, without the low impedance dips and according to the Onkyo's website, the TX-NR5008 has a massive toroidal transformer and 4 independent power supplies. I want an external amp! I want to hear a difference! But if I'm being honest, I just don't think an external amp is going to help me, either. You may still benefit (especially in the bottom end) by adding an amp to your CF-4's. That was the biggest difference I noticed with the RF-83's. The bass just had more authority with an amp. I had a pair of CF-4's but never tried powering them with just my receiver. At the time, I was driving them with the Parasound amp. PLENTY of slam from them. Here was my RF-83 vs CF-4 Comparison. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TasDom Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Well one good thing about keeping the amp with your AVR is having the backup support. It's like having an emergency generator when the lights go out. Having the pre/pro 5508, if my generator(s) goes out I'll be sitting here in the dark... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Well one good thing about keeping the amp with your AVR is having the backup support. It's like having an emergency generator when the lights go out. Having the pre/pro 5508, if my generator(s) goes out I'll be sitting here in the dark... lol except when the lights go out the amp goes out too. And it doesn't run on a gasoline engine to stay going after a power outage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TasDom Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Well one good thing about keeping the amp with your AVR is having the backup support. It's like having an emergency generator when the lights go out. Having the pre/pro 5508, if my generator(s) goes out I'll be sitting here in the dark... lol except when the lights go out the amp goes out too. And it doesn't run on a gasoline engine to stay going after a power outage lol it was an analogy dude, not literally 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I know just giving you a hard time. Thought it was funny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TasDom Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I know just giving you a hard time. Thought it was funny sitting here with the lights on and no sound just didn't sound right. But at least I could stare at my amps! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I can see with some speakers like the KLF 20, KLF 30 and CF 4 with larger woofers, impedance demand where an amp is needed. I see some distortion with my tube amp at high volume running Cornwalls with a 15in. woofer. The poor little amp was out of it's comfort zone, lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I can see with some speakers like the KLF 20, KLF 30 and CF 4 with larger woofers, impedance demand where an amp is needed. I see some distortion with my tube amp at high volume running Cornwalls with a 15in. woofer. The poor little amp was out of it's comfort zone, lol.i thought tube amps could run wide open with no distortion? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaman Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I know that with most Klipsch speakers a flea powered amp will make them sing but with the larger woofers they still need power to move air. I have two pair of Infinity SM 150 and 155 with 102bd efficiency but the low power amps and receivers barely move the woofers, whereas with the big power amps they come to life. I would assume that would be the caase with La Scalas, Corwalls or whatever as well....no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) I want an external amp! I want to hear a difference! But if I'm being honest, I just don't think an external amp is going to help me, either. If you are driving CF-4's with your Onkyo TX-NR717, I do believe you will benefit noticeably from a quality outboard amp. When I first got my RF-63's, I was driving them with my TX-SR705 onboard amps. Sounded good but truly believed the 63's had more to offer. Added a B&K Reference 4430(200w/ch) to drive the 63's and RC-62 and the improvements were noticed from top to bottom. My room is a solid 6000ft3 and the added power from the amp was clearly noticed in the dynamics department. The added headroom clearly filled my large room over just using the 705. I then added my Acurus A200/A200X3(different amp design than B&K) combo and the improvements were noticeable again. More thump in the low and midbass regions and clearly more detail highs. Not as noticeable as going from just AVR to AVR + B&K but still improvements. Bill Edited March 17, 2015 by willland 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 i thought tube amps could run wide open with no distortion? Tube amps are all about distortion. Not speaker damaging distortion but smooth and musical distortion. Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted March 17, 2015 Author Moderators Share Posted March 17, 2015 I know that with most Klipsch speakers a flea powered amp will make them sing but with the larger woofers they still need power to move air. I have two pair of Infinity SM 150 and 155 with 102bd efficiency but the low power amps and receivers barely move the woofers, whereas with the big power amps they come to life. I would assume that would be the caase with La Scalas, Corwalls or whatever as well....no?I agree with you 100% for most speakers with larger woofers or even multiple woofers. For kicks, maybe I'll do some A/B testing just in 2ch with no subs with the LaScalas and receiver vs LaScalas and amp.My dual RSW-15 likely mask any improvement in the LaScalas low end that an amp might AF. I do remember originally posting about the lack of deep bottom end on the LS and someone commented feed them some power and they would have more bottom end. I was already feeding them 200 wpc so that wasn't the issue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I can't do without my Acurus amps because my NAD pre/pro don't have no amps on board. It's hard to go back to a receiver after you've switched to separates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I can see with some speakers like the KLF 20, KLF 30 and CF 4 with larger woofers, impedance demand where an amp is needed. I see some distortion with my tube amp at high volume running Cornwalls with a 15in. woofer. The poor little amp was out of it's comfort zone, lol.i thought tube amps could run wide open with no distortion? My Yaquin VK 2100 amp is a tube hybird. Tube front end and SS in the rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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