Paducah Home Theater Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) I demo’ed the same RF-7ii and RC-64ii setup that I have in a large demo room at a high end retailer. They did have a nicer source though, not sure the blu ray player although they did keep mention the Oppo several times. They had the latest Marantz preamp, and a $7,500 power amp (on sale for half off, yay!) that I think had 200W x 7. The dynamics were incredible, the range and fullness it ramped up to blew me away although dialogue was normal to quiet, as we were talking over it just fine. The scene that shocked me was the waterfall scene in The Lorax. When the rapids came up those Klipsch’s were really paying the rent. I played the same movie a couple of nights ago so it reminded me of this. It just wasn’t the same. My question is, is there any way to duplicate this without buying a $7,500 amp? What confuses me is that I can actually get louder than it was in the showroom with my Marantz SR-7009 but the dynamic range is just not the same. I’m not sure if this is just part of it or might be a setting. Audessey did kill my fronts about 8 db, could that not just bring everything down but also kill dynamics? I realize there is an Audessey setting for Dynamic EQ that purposely kills dynamics but I do not have this on. Edited January 16, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Look at what I power my 7's with in my sig. If you get good current through them, you'll have the dynamics. It's all about headroom and your amps ability to really hit the transients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 The oppo won't make one bit if a difference. And when you run audyssey and it turns your mains down to -8 it's just level matching. That's all. That won't kill dynamics. I thought you had an amp already. When you run audyssey you should have dynamic eq. Which I leave in now. Used to not. But it does boost subs center and surrounds and make it much more watchable at lower volumes. Now the dynamic volume crap, that's stays off. But play with dynamic eq a bit. And also keep in mind they could have all kinds of stuff boosted and what not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 When you run audyssey you should have dynamic eq. Which I leave in now. Used to not. But it does boost subs center and surrounds and make it much more watchable at lower volumes. Now the dynamic volume crap, that's stays off. But play with dynamic eq a bit. I get those two mixed up, I meant dynamic volume. I turned off dynamic EQ because it made glass shattering and cymbal crashes really harsh and unrealistic even at low volumes. Otherwise I liked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 So crazy how different stuff can sound in each room. I get no harshness from a cinema speaker that has the treble boosted for powering through a vinyl perforated screen. Do you room treatments and carpet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) So crazy how different stuff can sound in each room. I get no harshness from a cinema speaker that has the treble boosted for powering through a vinyl perforated screen. Do you room treatments and carpet? I should be more specific... it hurts my ears more when watching my beloved tri-weekly Metallica sessions. Even at -20 db it is on the threshold of being too loud for extended periods of time, then all of a sudden some cymbals come by or a glass door gets smashed to bits. With Dynamic EQ on it is very loud. The cymbals don't hurt as bad as the glass, but its more like the tone changes plus it sounds like the cymbals are louder than the drums and don't sound correct. Dynamic EQ is either on or off, it doesn't phase out as it gets louder, which is aggravating to me, you just set it to a certain volume level and if your receiver is under that number then its on. It is probably fine on other material but I'd be switching back and forth so I haven't messed with it. Harsh may not be the correct term. I do have carpet, as well as cloth seats, fixing to add some thick curtains in multiple spots. Edited January 16, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitrofan Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 A lot of you will probably disagree with me on this and say im crazy but anyway. I let audyssey run on my system when i got my new receiver denon avr4311ci and when it was done i listened to some music then tried a movie and both sounded horrible. I mean boselike horrible. No bass, no anything but dull sounding midrange that i had to crank to -20 to even be able to discern what was being said. And for sure no dynamics. Room was quiet, mic in 5 different places, no obstruction around mic. I just figured the way i like my system to sound was far from what audyssey considered optimal. I manually adjusted crossover points, eq for each speaker and individual volume levels and it's great as far as my ears are concerned now. The only thing audyssey was close on was the sub crossover points. In fact they may have already been at 80hz which is what i have then at now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) A lot of you will probably disagree with me on this and say im crazy but anyway. I let audyssey run on my system when i got my new receiver denon avr4311ci and when it was done i listened to some music then tried a movie and both sounded horrible. I mean boselike horrible. No bass, no anything but dull sounding midrange that i had to crank to -20 to even be able to discern what was being said. And for sure no dynamics. Room was quiet, mic in 5 different places, no obstruction around mic. I just figured the way i like my system to sound was far from what audyssey considered optimal. I manually adjusted crossover points, eq for each speaker and individual volume levels and it's great as far as my ears are concerned now. The only thing audyssey was close on was the sub crossover points. In fact they may have already been at 80hz which is what i have then at now I can in fact notice a more nasally sound once Audessey has been ran, especially with music. Having Audessey on as well as dynamic eq can sometimes sound weird. I had assumed it would be better for movies anyway but I dunno. I might turn it all off for awhile and see how I like it, maybe try again after I buy a pro kit with an actual calibrated microphone and quality stand. Edited January 16, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) The dynamics you heard at the audio store could be several things, room size, room construction, equipment and equipment chain and many other factors. One way to increase the dynamic range of most system is to run all speakers as small. This will give an addition 3-6 db of headroom for the midrange. The midrange is where human hearing is most acute. If I had to bet, a lot of it was the room. Edited January 16, 2015 by derrickdj1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tromprof Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 All my DVD players also have a dynamic compression setting as well, you might want to make sure it is off. If so, I bet the room has a lot to do with it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 All things being equal, you're not going to get the same punch from a lower wattage receiver than you will from a separate high current amp. It's just not going to happen. You'll get the volume but not the punch and dynamics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 If I had to bet, a lot of it was the room. It was a large room with a tall ceiling, full of speakers in the front, a row of various subs on each side, the towers spread apart pretty far, the center was just laying on the floor, and we were standing up. I assumed the room was doing more harm than good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) All things being equal, you're not going to get the same punch from a lower wattage receiver than you will from a separate high current amp. It's just not going to happen. You'll get the volume but not the punch and dynamics. I couldn't remember the model but after looking around I think it was a Lexicon ZX-7. Not just any amp. I'm probably chasing rainbows by asking this. It was at least an RX-7 but those don't sell for as much I don't think. Edited January 16, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) All things being equal, you're not going to get the same punch from a lower wattage receiver than you will from a separate high current amp. It's just not going to happen. You'll get the volume but not the punch and dynamics. I couldn't remember the model but after looking around I think it was a Lexicon ZX-7. Not just any amp. I'm probably chasing rainbows by asking this. It was at least an RX-7 but those don't sell for as much I don't think. Your Marantz is has less than 3 dB less power output than the amp you spoke of in the showroom, but I wonder if the Marantz was rated with all (or at least 5, or 7, or whatever you use) channels operating. The Marantz site did not list the (RMS) power per channel, with all channels operating. Still, I doubt if, in terms of power, there is much of a difference. I've heard rumors that the original Reference series was persnickity about current ... but Marantz claims "high current, for whatever that's worth. As to the room, there was one room in my life that sounded much better than the others, and the dynamics, while probably not quantifiably higher, sounded more effortless and free, even though the amps were of lower power than my present ones, and the speakers were 2 dB less efficient than my present fronts, and there were only two speakers across the front, unstead of three, and no surround ... so, who knows, the difference you heard might have been due to the room. Perhaps the quality of the reverberation was better, and neither too much nor too little, as well. Edited January 17, 2015 by Garyrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 What kind of amp do you have? Separate power amp or receiver? (RMS) power per channel. with all channels operating? I just have a Marantz SR-7009 receiver, supposed to be 125x9 but I doubt that's all channels driven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Maybe it's worth trying a power amp for the front stage. Even avr's that say individual ch output may still fall short when all ch are driven. Here is a bench test of the Pioneer SC 37 showing 2 ch and 5 ch driven. I wonder how the numbers would drop with 7 ch going. : Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:0.1% distortion at 135.7 watts1% distortion at 171.9 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:0.1% distortion at 125.4 watts1% distortion at 164.7 watts Edited January 17, 2015 by derrickdj1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted January 17, 2015 Moderators Share Posted January 17, 2015 I believe amps do offer an improvement but in my experience, it's not a night and day difference. I've owned a Parasound, B&K and Sherbourn (all 200 watts/ch) and I did not hear any difference between the 3 amps but all three amps did provide more clarity, better separation of musical instruments and more bass (even at low volumes). So my take on it is yes an amp will provide a better experience, just not sure you will actually hear the difference between say a $6000 amp and a $2000 amp, and if by chance you do, I doubt it will sound 3 times better. Law of Diminishing Return 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) The only thing audyssey was close on was the sub crossover points. In fact they may have already been at 80hz which is what i have then at now I like to let Audyssey set the 5.0 with no sub attached, then plug in the sub and calibrate it by ear. I XO my Klipsch RW-12d sub at either 60 or 80, usually 80, set to Punch mode (punch, flat, depth). I listen at 13 feet, but set the sub distance (time alignment) to about 25 feet. Edited January 17, 2015 by wvu80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I just have a Marantz SR-7009 receiver, supposed to be 125x9 but I doubt that's all channels driven. Correct, spec'd at only 2 channels driven. Not the 7009 here but the 7008. Marantz SR7008 A/V Receiver Test Bench 2 channels continuously driven, 8 ohms (watts @ 0.1% / 1.0% THD): 122.5 / 148.02 channels continuously driven, 4 ohms (watts at 0.1% / 1.0% THD): 195.4 / 216.85 channels continuously driven, 8 ohms (watts at 0.1% / 1.0% THD): 101.2 / 111.57 channels continuously driven, 8 ohms (watts at 0.1% / 1.0% THD): 68.8 / 82.2 We must assume that since the 7009 is spec'd the same as the 7008 that they would bench very near the same. Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 All things being equal, you're not going to get the same punch from a lower wattage receiver than you will from a separate high current amp. It's just not going to happen. I am 100% in agreement. Also you "may" not get the same punch from two different let's say 200w/channel amps. Case in point, when I owned my B&K EX4420, it did not bring out the low and mid bass punch the way my Acurus A200 was able to achieve. Nothing at all against the B&K but the Acurus had/has more bass drive capabilities than any other amp I have ever owned. And I have owned over 29 amps from 8 different mfr's in my time. Even one of if not the most beast of an AVR, the Yamaha ZX9, could not match the dynamics and bass drive abilities of a well designed high current amp. Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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