BigStewMan Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 … another lady told me that speakers were to be heard and not seen. Did you tell her that she should be hearing music and that if she is hearing speakers something must be wrong? i should have. Nah, i just told her that good speakers were nice to look it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigStewMan Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 i control my spending quite well. See what you’ve started Michael…i was just offered two McIntosh MC30 tube amps for $600. An elderly couple at my church was going to toss them, thinking they were of no value. My brother stopped him and said that they had value. They belonged to the lady’s late first husband. Craig indicated that rebuilt they could fetch $3500-$4500. Rebuild runs about $700.I was forthright with this couple of the value after rebuilt and my brother even offered to put it on ebay or craigslist if they wanted to get top dollar. Just moments ago, i was told that i could have them both for $600. I have to buy them … you know that starts the dominos … now i need a preamp…may as well have some KHorns to go along with them … geez, i was ready to get another guitar too. Somehow i must do it all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 If you need to ship them straight here and have me store them for you until you overcome your self loathing, I'm happy to oblige. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 See what you’ve started Michael…i was just offered two McIntosh MC30 tube amps for $600. Craig indicated that rebuilt they could fetch $3500-$4500. Rebuild runs about $700. Minermark has a good point. Get them rebuilt and talk them up since I don't think Earl has bought a pair of McIntosh MC30s yet. You won't even have to meet him in person as he will just stand at the end of his driveway waiting for them. Earl just wants us to chat about Equipment, he just really wants to make sure he has it all. He's freezing up north and likely needs more tube equip to keep him toasty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) It seems that we are getting a bit stale. I have been a member for only a year, but it seems to me that we have gone from interesting threads about music, amps, preamps, tubes, concerts, members histories...to silly arguments about who said what to whom, whose opinions are sacrosanct, silly retorts to serious questions...I miss discussions about music, hearing about grandchildren, ill people getting better, learning about equipment... I agree that the forum has undergone a change in makeup/contribution within the last year. I suppose that Klipsch corporation is okay with the way the forum has changed since there doesn't seem to be much comment or policy with regard to this (unlike many other audio forums). I too find that most contributors here now don't really use the forum for discussions on audio. I don't presently see any swinging back towards technical discussions that you describe anytime soon. I personally don't use this forum as a personal Facebook page, which is something that I don't have and never intend to acquire. My personal conversations--including off topic smalltalk--aren't found online. The problem that you state Earl is that this Facebook-like behavior on the Klipsch technical sub-forums tends to run off good technical contributors, and doesn't attract new technical contributors with knowledgeable audio backgrounds. It would be nice if the contributors here that are not asking real technical questions or trying to answer the questions would find other threads to fill with irrelevant comment. I don't have a solution that keeps the technical contributors here: they vote by leaving (and have). One of the best Klipsch engineers (Roy D.) tried to contribute here again this summer but has since left the forum again due to stray comments and poor social skills by others on the forum. It's a great loss IMO--for that's where I really learn more about audio. Chris I certainly disagree that FB like behavior on sub forums tends to run off good technical contributors. The most popular and longest running threads have been the feel good threads such as 3 Minutes To Miller Time, Right This Minute, and Cables And Coffee. Places where the non technical members can contribute and feel they are a part of the forum. Just maybe along the way they may learn something about tech. The forum is divided into sub forums for just this reason. If you don't like it in the "Lounge" don't go there. Please provide the names of the technical writers who were offended by non technical post and left the forum. I have been here going on ten years and only know of a couple technical contributors who have left and not for FB like post I might add. If Roy had sent me a note to say my coffee discussion was annoying him I would certainly have given that position some consideration. Shoot....we even have Mark using emoticons these days! What I enjoy is feeling good in the "Coffee" thread but occasionally going to the 2 Channel forum to see what the "big boys" are chatting about. Heck Chris I have learned some neat things about digital and the data base threads from your post and am glad you contribute. You are certainly a resource to this forum as is the timid newbie who wants to ask questions that have been asked a hundred times or wants to say his family member is ill, or that his beloved pet has passed on. This is a community with many different needs and abilities. I think we do a great job of providing space for everyone who wants to contribute. Long live the forum. I recommend rereading the highlighted text, above. I have no problem with your threads...and I'm very surprised if you think that I do. What I was talking about was off-topic posts on technical threads, of which I don't remember a single instance by you of doing. My posting above was only in support of Earl's (the OP's) original comments and is provided in that spirit to support his observations. I believe that he is perceptive. But I offer no recommendations, unfortunately...only support. If you took this as an attack on your postings then let me first apologize for any possible misunderstandings of implied intent, and also assure you that you are not part of that discussion. In fact, I'm somewhat amazed at your taking my comments the way that you apparently did. As far as you not seeing those instances or people affected that don't presently post here any more, then you probably have no issue with the status quo of the forum and I'm happy for you. However, I see it. I don't believe that enumerating any more instances and names is going to change anything or convince you, but rather only to fuel a "he said, she said" argument--of which Earl commented on above. I prefer instead simply to confirm his observations. Chris Edited January 24, 2015 by Chris A 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) Earl, Do you think that this thread has addressed your comments? Chris Edited January 24, 2015 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) Thanks, Chris. As usual, you are spot on. It is interesting how we communicate "past" one another. My original post was in response to the latest technical post turned personal attack thread relating to interconnects/cables. What began as a simple question, about which reasonable people could disagree, turned into a slam fest. This was due in part to a legitimate disagreement concerning qualitative (I can hear the difference) vs. quantitative (show me concrete proof) methods of thinking about sound. I respect these difference in views as many of my closest friends are engineers and firmly believe that if you can't measure it, it is bs (not bachelor of science). I, on the other hand, can't do much beyond +,-,x,/. However, as the Supreme Court said of pornography, "I know it when I see (or in this case "hear") it." The difference is that when my friends outside the Forum and I disagree, we don't attack one another's character, parentage, etc. I wonder if the discussions would be as nasty if the participants were standing toe to toe? Someone posted a thread from 2004, in which DeanG said he was coming here less and less due to the nature of the interactions. What have we lost by his declining participation? How many important/valuable members have we lost for similar reasons? Anyone remember AL K.? Tarheel, you know that I love you (don't take that too literally), but in response to your statement, "Please provide the names of the technical writers who were offended by non technical post and left the forum" I refer you to the thread concerning line filtering (Uberbuss) which was no more than the previously discussed dichotomy between the "measure it"/"hear it" camps. It turned nasty very quickly. Now we find ourselves in the same boat with the MIT/Khorn thread. I must admit that I have stopped commenting on many subjects just to avoid the "you don't know your *** from a hole in the wall" gang. In summary, maybe we should consider just expressing our opinions without attacking the opinions of others and let the reader decide whose opinion makes the most sense TO THEM. Or, in some cases, concluding that both positions have merit. Not every opinion which differs from the OP's view is an attack on the OP, and in most cases should not be taken as such. Just tell us what you think and let the OP's (or last poster's) opinion speak for itself. Rant over. Edited January 24, 2015 by eth2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 i control my spending quite well were you always that way? I’ve never been financially responsible. I’m fine financially; but, that’s not because of any financial planning that i’ve done. I constantly walk out of a store without any idea of how much i just spent--that’s the problem with debit cards--i don’t even listen to the cashier tell me how much it was, i don’t look a the cash register … just swipe the card and walk away. i think everyone has certain areas where they’re willing to spend more and areas where they don’t. i have no problem spending a lot of money on a car or a guitar; but, i’ve always hated paying a lot for a meal. Now my cousin is a professional chef -- he has no problem paying over $100 for his meal--he says a nice meal is entertainment for him. Another problem is that i don’t get rid of stuff…i have several speakers that haven’t been used in years…i should sell them; but, not the most social person in the world and placing an ad in crags list isn’t something i’m comfortable with. People might want to buy them, then they’d want to call me, and i’d have to talk to them, then i’d have to actually meet them. Hello Ativan. Did we get separated at birth,lol? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 24, 2015 Moderators Share Posted January 24, 2015 I would like to see it taken bact to that Taverna in Greece, now that was a great time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I wonder if the discussions would be as nasty if the participants were standing toe to toe? Probably yes if they were cast on the Jerry Springer show. Replace a keyboard with alcohol in a dive bar and you will see a similar side of human nature or maybe behaviour that borders on egocentrism arise. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigStewMan Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Did we get separated at birth,lol? that is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) ...maybe we should consider just expressing our opinions without attacking the opinions of others and let the reader decide whose opinion makes the most sense TO THEM. Or, in some cases, concluding that both positions have merit. Not every opinion which differs from the OP's view is an attack on the OP, and in most cases should not be taken as such. Just tell us what you think and let the OP's (or last poster's) opinion speak for itself. I find that there is a great deal of "either/or" thinking that is used in these debates (versus dialogues--which are typically much more useful...to all of us). My experience has been that the proponents of the "subjectivist audiophile" viewpoints want to be able to say that you can't measure something that they can hear. I've found that many new measurement techniques have been found over my audiophile experience that have significantly closed the gap on these arguments, and more are being made every day. When I read debates about the audibility of component X can't be measured, I immediately think of all those instances where it can now be measured. Few debaters acknowledge this situation--on either side. Using audibility testing to improve measurement has been the most important addition in bridging the gap between subjectivism and objectivism camps. But few if any take the high road in these debates to acknowledge the opportunities that exist to improve measurements based on hearing differences, IMHE. I also see a lot of "solution aversion" debates which seek to deny that there are issues where the responders deny the problem even exists (e.g., "global warming") but there are many other much less savory examples. In audio, there are notable "solution aversion" discussions such as: ability of ABX testing to determine true differences in fidelity of hi-fi components (i.e., anti-ABX testing bias) audibility of time alignment of drivers and loudspeakers in arrays audibility of characteristics of piece parts used in passive crossovers audibility of "analog-only" components (i.e., the anti-digital bias, including phonograph records, etc.) audibility of high-priced-but-minor components such as cables, DACs, disc media formats, power conditioners, etc. audibility of direct radiating woofer modulation distortion audibility of straight vs. folded horn bass bins audibility of high frequency chatter in compression drivers audibility of different profiles of bass, midrange, and high frequency horns audibility of loudspeaker toe-in audibility of room acoustics (i.e., the degree of possible improvement available by paying attention to in-room acoustics) etc. All these instances are characterized by one group of people not wanting the solution instead of discussing the merits of the argument and the sonic differences heard. In all cases, human hearing has to be the final determinant of the merit of hardware or software characteristics. How can we be sure that it can be heard? Why, we must test it using at least our hearing, right? But if you're in the anti-ABX camp, you don't want the solution, so you attack the only true means necessary (and mutually acceptable) to identify differences. I don't know about you, but if someone can show me that I can't hear the difference that I thought I could hear, I'll thank them for saving me money that can now spend on other more important equipment or higher fidelity music. Chris Edited January 24, 2015 by Chris A 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Americans have been trained to think in either/or manner. That is a huge part of the problem. The country doesn't embrace soccer because it ends in ties frequently, causing cognitive dissonance. NHL hockey has changed the rules to always declare a victor because of this. Political discussions are always one party versus the other because Americans have been trained to think that third or fourth and fifth parties are a waste of voting. The list could go on and on with examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I've perceived a single source for the vast majority of bad feelings in the Forum over the years: The belief that one can know what another hears, by scientific measurement or any other method. That belief is delusional and delusion leads to conflict when it meets the real world. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 ...with notable exception to Dave's Golden Ears... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 ...with notable exception to Dave's Golden Ears... Actually I think it is his cat's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 My argument is that ABX is not a solution, because it simply doesn't work as sold. So if you discount a small bit of your ABX testing expectations, you can give yourself permission to discard it completely...? An example of either/or thinking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) Toole has a great deal of discussion in his book on subjective loudspeaker (and other hi-fi component) evaluations, notably all of Chapter 17, pgs.337-363, and an excellent follow-up chapter on objective loudspeaker evaluations in chapter 18, pgs 365-427 . I recommend both chapters most highly...in lieu of simple flaming on this subject. Toole's background in this area is the best that I know of. Edited January 24, 2015 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 i feel like I'm at an intervention. it's awkward and unnecessary and will either fix itself or crash and burn. Besides, there's always AudioKarma Snark ATTACK everybody run 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Friendship, music, and shared interests. Cheers 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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