derrickdj1 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Three or 4 inches is good. The should work for carpet or hardwood floors. I have my down firing Klipsch on hardwood but, I use to have it on carpet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 No way!! Then you'll never see all the crazy flex that happens!!! Lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 Parts express posted an equation that is supposed to show whether a sub is ok for down firing due to the amount of sag. Anything over 5% is supposed to not be good for this situation. Apparently an ultimax 18 has 30%. It seems that big heavy high xmax low Fs subs aren't the best candidates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdave Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) No way!! Then you'll never see all the crazy flex that happens!!! Lol. Scrappy, since you are "The Klipsch Plank Meister", It would be only fitting for Metro's to be "The Flex Meister". Edited June 18, 2015 by Superdave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 Unfortunately "Funkmaster Flex" is already taken. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Sucks, been putting this off but I need to cut that granite soon. Probably going to skip the horn loaded thing. Would like to stick with about a 20x20x96 box. Down to 3 choices: * Four 18's in a sealed box. Should be about perfect for this size. Several different 18's should work ok in this size. HT-18's, HST's, UltiMax's, Fi Q's, all should work. * Two Acoustic Elegance AV15H 15's in a ported box tuned low, I think it needs to be about 6 cubic feet plus various displacements, probably also a good fit, may be able to limit the depth and reduce screen reflections. These just seem like super nice drivers with crazy low Le numbers so I keep coming back to them. Wish they came in an 18. * Two Ultimax 18's in a ported box tuned to 20 hz, mainly because I already have the subs, otherwise they're not really my first choice. Haven't done all the math yet but I think this is going to be a tight squeeze and may require a slightly larger box. Need 9.3 cubic feet plus bracing and displacement from the walls of the slotted port. Just say 9.5 or so, times two. I have about 18.5 internal available with the given specs but simply making it 1" taller increases volume by nearly 1 cubic foot to the size I need, so I think it will work. F3 is 18 hz with this setup, should be able to reach 15-16 after room gain. I don't have room to tune it lower and keep them up front, would have to move to the back corners or something. Edited November 9, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 You may need two vented boxes like I use. Roughly 40x 22x 21. Those measurement should be pretty close. The port is modified for slightly lower extension. I have the UM 18 and am very satisfied with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Brushing off a horn loaded sub is a really bad choice, you could stack multiple 18's,from floor to ceiling add 1000's of watts of power and still there will be no comparison in sound. Missing minute details and high distortion will be result. By using all those expensive drivers you could have one built for you. Look into a 18" x 21" x 72" THTLP and stand it in a corner, best use of space i can think of. Edited November 9, 2015 by jason str 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Sucks, been putting this off but I need to cut that granite soon. Probably going to skip the horn loaded thing. Would like to stick with about a 20x20x96 box. Can't help you with the box size....but, if you are able to get to Knoxville, we could drag a Danley DTS-10 inside so you could give it a good listen. I think Jason has a good point..... 'Brushing off a horn loaded sub is really a bad choice..... and still there will be no comparison in sound" I don't know if you've heard (or felt) a Danley. My wife seems to be thawing where I can bring one in and use it in lieu of a table as a support for the TV. I think I could live with the raising the TV up a bit. A helpful hand is always welcome when moving 250+ pound speakers, precariously balanced on a hand truck, negotiating a gravel driveway and an uneven flagstone walkway, through two sets of French Doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Brushing off a horn loaded sub is a really bad choice, you could stack multiple 18's, add 1000's of watts of power from floor to ceiling and still there will be no comparison in sound. Missing minute details and high distortion will be the result. By using all those expensive drivers you could have one built for you. Look into a 18" x 21" x 72" THTLP and stand it in a corner, best use of space i can think of. I just don't see where high distortion is a problem with many direct radiators. Under 5-6% is a number for many direct radiator of recent. What type of numbers are you thinking for typical horn subs. Database.com list less than 10% as acceptable. In a FR of 10-300 Hz for a sub band, I am less than 3% and a lot of the band is under 1%. I don't think I would hear any more detail with a horn system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Brushing off a horn loaded sub is a really bad choice, you could stack multiple 18's, add 1000's of watts of power from floor to ceiling and still there will be no comparison in sound. Missing minute details and high distortion will be the result. By using all those expensive drivers you could have one built for you. Look into a 18" x 21" x 72" THTLP and stand it in a corner, best use of space i can think of. I just don't see where high distortion is a problem with many direct radiators. Under 5-6% is a number for many direct radiator of recent. What type of numbers are you thinking for typical horn subs. Database.com list less than 10% as acceptable. In a FR of 10-300 Hz for a sub band, I am less than 3% and a lot of the band is under 1%. I don't think I would hear any more detail with a horn system. You get used it and think its normal. I forget the exact numbers but 2% throughout the range @ 115 dB if i recall, might be 120 Db but i misplaced the link somehow. 10% is not an acceptable number, probably at a lower output to boot. Plus these horn subs provide far superior midbass, its not even a close match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Horns could be interesting and I'm sure I could build one if given enough time, but: 1. All the designs I've seen are pretty big. Dual F-20 was originally talked about but that's 120" wide and 30" deep. I'd have to widen my towers and would get a ton of reflections from the screen being that deep. Could use one but it would not be symmetrical unless I went with something like the cyclops design. Even with one F-20... that's 30" deep, right under a screen. I can't see that happening. 20" is bad enough, would like to shorten this if possible but that limits my choices greatly. 2. I could move them to the back corners, but seems to me that I would lose front staging on music. I want kick drums to come from the screen. Yeah once you get below 50 hz it's more omnidirectional but how are subs in my rear corners going to handle 60-80 hz kick drums? I've had ultimaxes right behind me and only behind me before, did not sound good on rock music at all due to the staging issues. My two sealed 18's sound nicely with rock concerts, everything comes from the screen area, and moving the subs to the rear makes me concerned that I would lose this. 3. Curious about bass guitar as well. With exposed cones you can get the little nuances and growls from a bass. Being an ex-bass player and knowing what these things sound like live, this is very important to me. Sealed boxes provide excellent detail for this type of thing. Maybe this is dead wrong but I can't see this being the same situation when 100% of your sound is coming through a port. 4. As stupid as it sounds, my wife likes seeing exposed drivers everywhere. Part of the reason I can get away with stuff is because she thinks it looks cool as hell. Horn loaded designs are about the least sexy design you can possibly put in a room. I'm sure they work but they're just a big giant box. Seriously doubt she'll enjoy that. Edited November 9, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Horns could be interesting and I'm sure I could build one if given enough time, but: 1. All the designs I've seen are pretty big. Dual F-20 was originally talked about but that's 120" wide and 30" deep. I'd have to widen my towers and would get a ton of reflections from the screen being that deep. Could use one but it would not be symmetrical unless I went with something like the cyclops design. Even with one F-20... that's 30" deep, right under a screen. I can't see that happening. 20" is bad enough, would like to shorten this if possible but that limits my choices greatly. THT can be built much smaller and is a better product in my opinion. 2. I could move them to the back corners, but seems to me that I would lose front staging on music. I want kick drums to come from the screen. Yeah once you get below 50 hz it's more omnidirectional but how are subs in my rear corners going to handle 60-80 hz kick drums? I've had ultimaxes right behind me and only behind me before, did not sound good on rock music at all. I prefer my subs in front myself, soundwaves may be omnidirectional but any structual or object noises will come through. 3. Curious about bass guitar as well. With exposed cones you can get the little nuances and growls from a bass. Sealed boxes provide excellent detail for this type of thing. Maybe this is dead wrong but I can't see this being the same situation when 100% of your sound is coming through a port. Likely distortion perceived as bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Likely distortion perceived as bass. I mean, technically it is distortion, but that's part of the original source. Play a bass guitar through an Ampeg tube amp and yeah those tubes purposely add distortion, that's what makes it growl, which is its signature sound. The end user needs to hear this growl. I know what it sounds like and dumbing it down to the root note's base frequency isn't going to cut it. I'm afraid that horns would do this more than other designs but cannot prove this without just building one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 THT can be built much smaller and is a better product in my opinion. Those are 36" deep if laid on its side. Even worse for under the screen use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Multiple drivers = less cone movement = less distortion. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Horns will not dig as deep and give you the infrasonics as a bunch of big direct radiators either. I think I've built most all the popular types of sibs. Sealed, ported, FLH's, tapped horns, IB's et al. There's trade offs to each design, none are perfect at everything. Not one is best at everything. All have trade offs, expense, size, distortion, extension to name a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Likely distortion perceived as bass. I mean, technically it is distortion, but that's part of the original source. Play a bass guitar through an Ampeg tube amp and yeah those tubes purposely add distortion, that's what makes it growl, which is its signature sound. The end user needs to hear this growl. I know what it sounds like and dumbing it down to the root note's base frequency isn't going to cut it. I'm afraid that horns would do this more than other designs but cannot prove this without just building one. Its not like you don't hear these sounds through a horn and comparing it to a guitar amp is apples to peanuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 apples to peanuts. I like apples and peanuts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 THT can be built much smaller and is a better product in my opinion. Those are 36" deep if laid on its side. Even worse for under the screen use. THTLP is 18" deep, the standard version is 36". My mistake i meant THTLP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Multiple drivers = less cone movement = less distortion. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Horns will not dig as deep and give you the infrasonics as a bunch of big direct radiators either. I think I've built most all the popular types of sibs. Sealed, ported, FLH's, tapped horns, IB's et al. There's trade offs to each design, none are perfect at everything. Not one is best at everything. All have trade offs, expense, size, distortion, extension to name a few. Multiples are better yes but anything can be multiplied including horns. A stack of 18"s still will not sound like a horn any way you place them. Granted no design has everything and some are more turned off by distortion than others including myself but I'm willing to sacrifice a few Hz for a far better sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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