Coytee Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I'm asking more out of curiosity.... I keep telling myself I don't need a tube amp..... don't need a tube amp..... I read some things the other day and can't get this question out of my head. For the sake of conversation, let's just say that tube amps are designed to play 20/20K. What if you are biamping and don't need the amp to go to 20hz? What if you are crossing at say, 300/500 (other) hz. Can you skew the output such that you can maximize other benefits into the sound since the amp isn't expected to play as low? If so, what are the other trade-off's that you can now explore? (no particular amp/tube flavor in mind although since SET seems to be a popular flavor, we can use SET) Would you simply use different iron? Could you squeeze more output since the total output isn't spread so wide? (make a 2A3 think it was a bad-azz KT-90??) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 I've had several SET amps and a pair of SE-OTL amps. Though I liked the quality of the sound, I was terribly frustrated with the lower output.....I simply wanted more of what it gave. That is in part what has me curious. If a SET-300B gave me good sound but not enough, could a 300B designed for a more narrow output, provide more of it? Also, since I'm using an active, it would be nice to have XLR inputs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Good question, I have wondered the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Richard, can you ask Carl or one of the other mods to move this over to the tubes section? This will be an interesting topic of conversation, and I don't want the other tube guys to miss out by not seeing this thread. Regards-- Maynard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CindyJarvis Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) You wouldn't necessarily get more mid band power. The real advantage is you can get away with much smaller output iron. When you airgap a transformer which is necessary when standing DC current is passing through the winding the inductance drops off. To compensate for a lower L output transformer designers use more turns to increase L. More turns means more copper and iron and this is why a 20-20k output transformer for SE tube amps are so expensive. -Cindy Edited February 9, 2016 by CindyJarvis 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 You wouldn't necessarily get more mid band power. The real advantage is you can get away with much smaller output iron. When you airgap a transformer which is necessary when standing DC current is passing through the winding the inductance drops off. To compensate for a lower L output transformer designers use more turns to increase L. More turns means more copper and iron and this is why a 20-20k output transformer for SE tube amps are so expensive. -Cindy So in a sense one could cut down on cost per an amp but still have the sound quality. Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CindyJarvis Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) Another benefit along with reduced cost is better high frequency range. When you use more turns to increase the primary inductance the downside is increased shunt capacitance which limits high frequency response. Designing transformers is a tradeoff. When you eliminate the low frequency response as a requirement you can have better high frequency response. -Cindy Edited February 9, 2016 by CindyJarvis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Can Carl or any mod move this as per the above request? That said.... he says with a mysterious voice.... just who is this Cindy Jarvis? Pops up out of nowhere and has given some interesting comments. Cindy.... care to introduce yourself to us? (your background as you are sounding more like an engineer than a home maker (not that there's anything wrong with home makers that are engineers, in fact, I know one)) Your first 8 posts are not typical of a new person.... let alone, a female new person!! We don't get too many women that hang out with us! (where's Me Again when I need her...) All above is in my opinion and I mean no disrespect with my curiosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CindyJarvis Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Hello, I found this forum through a google search about tube amps and klipsch speakers. My background is a B.S. in Mathematics. I also worked alongside some very bright engineers for my uncles corporation designing power supplies. I happen to have a passion for music like my mother. -Cindy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Welcome! It's great to have you here. Bruce 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I smell xxJPMxx 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthews Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Edited February 13, 2016 by Matthews 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I'm asking more out of curiosity.... I keep telling myself I don't need a tube amp..... don't need a tube amp..... I read some things the other day and can't get this question out of my head. For the sake of conversation, let's just say that tube amps are designed to play 20/20K. What if you are biamping and don't need the amp to go to 20hz? What if you are crossing at say, 300/500 (other) hz. Can you skew the output such that you can maximize other benefits into the sound since the amp isn't expected to play as low? If so, what are the other trade-off's that you can now explore? (no particular amp/tube flavor in mind although since SET seems to be a popular flavor, we can use SET) Would you simply use different iron? Could you squeeze more output since the total output isn't spread so wide? (make a 2A3 think it was a bad-azz KT-90??) The output is determined by the output tube setup, not the transformer as an upper limit. Transformer quality doesn't increase just because it has narrow bandwidth, in fact, the reverse is generally true. Just look at the cheap little MI transformers compared to HiFi transformers. They are 1/4 the size, and have more distortion. If you could design a special transformer for the narrow band, then yes, you could improve it over larger ones, but the cost of doing that for a one off is kind of prohibitive. The small ones on the shelf will not likely be better than "full bandwidth" HiFi trannies. There's really not much to recommend designing a limited bandwidth amp. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Some people just won't stay gone. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 You wouldn't necessarily get more mid band power. The real advantage is you can get away with much smaller output iron. When you airgap a transformer which is necessary when standing DC current is passing through the winding the inductance drops off. To compensate for a lower L output transformer designers use more turns to increase L. More turns means more copper and iron and this is why a 20-20k output transformer for SE tube amps are so expensive. -Cindy Hey, it's great to see some ladies interested in the technology. Very pertinent post. It will be interesting to see a lady's POV here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel's wife Posted February 10, 2016 Moderators Share Posted February 10, 2016 Some people just won't stay gone. Yes, but we know who "they" are! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 You wouldn't necessarily get more mid band power. The real advantage is you can get away with much smaller output iron. When you airgap a transformer which is necessary when standing DC current is passing through the winding the inductance drops off. To compensate for a lower L output transformer designers use more turns to increase L. More turns means more copper and iron and this is why a 20-20k output transformer for SE tube amps are so expensive. -Cindy Hey, it's great to see some ladies interested in the technology. Very pertinent post. It will be interesting to see a lady's POV here. Welcome to 2016 Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Or maybe not. I guess no one has any technical advise about the OPs interesting inquiry, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 I guess I missed something. Although I don't mind/care if Cindy is someone else.... I did/do have my suspicions that it might have been the case. If she is someone and there were issues with them, I guess I totally missed the issues as I'm clueless as to some of the responses. That said.... I suspected something amiss on her first post but didn't say anything. Ok, no big deal on that, whatever the reality is. I have no bone to pick with anyone. So the upshot seems to be that if you build a tube amp with a more narrow range, you can simply get by using some less expensive parts and that's about it? If you give it XLR inputs does that throw any wrenches into the works? (why XLR? because my active has them for outputs) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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