Shot Gorilla - ?What Sub-Moron designed.....

[CECAA850]

It's so hard to actually get the facts on this.  I've read that the child was either 3, 4 or 5 years old in 3 different articles.  If they can't even get that right, it's hard to form an opinion as you have no idea what source or what facts to believe, if any.  Start to finish, the whole thing is tragic and also could have been much worse.

[mustang guy]

Being at fault and being negligent are very different things. Yes, the mother and the zoo were both at fault. Has the mother ever experienced anything like this in her life? If she had, then this was negligent. Has a kid ever broken into any of the zoo areas in this manner before, or did anybody ever recommend the barrier be changed in such a way so as to keep this kid out? If the answer is yes, then they are negligent. It is very easy to look back on mistakes that are made and point our bony fingers. On the positive side of this, seeing this will cause some parents to watch little ones a bit more closely, and may have already saved a life or two. The zoo designers are probably already fixing the areas all over the world.

[Max2]

The story is about as vague as the definition of the word  Accident.   Bullshit happens, but is there really such a thing as an accident? 

 

 

Full Definition of accident

1. 1 a :  an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstanceb :  lack of intention or necessity :  chance <met by accident rather than by design>

2. 2 a :  an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignoranceb :  an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious <a cerebrovascular accident>c :  an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be soughtd —used euphemistically to refer to an involuntary act or instance of urination or defecation

3. 3 :  a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance <the accident of nationality>

Edited June 1, 2016 by Max2

[Ceptorman]

It's a shame we lost that majestic creature, but a child was saved.

 

I heard once a gorilla pound for pound is 10x stronger than a human. Can you imagine how strong a 425 lb gorilla would be!

[CECAA850]

I heard once a gorilla pound for pound is 10x stronger than a human. Can you imagine how strong a 425 lb gorilla would be!

 

Hang on, I can do this...............................  As strong as a 4,250 pound man?

[Ceptorman]

 

I heard once a gorilla pound for pound is 10x stronger than a human. Can you imagine how strong a 425 lb gorilla would be!

 

Hang on, I can do this...............................  As strong as a 4,250 pound man?

 

That's actually pretty funny

[mustang guy]

[mustang guy]

One more thing:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36426608

[Travis In Austin]

So everyone concedes that the Zoo acted appropriately in shooting the gorilla?

It's only a matter.of who is more culpable? The designer of the barrier, or the mother for letting him get into that situation.

If the parents are clearly at fault, should the zoo have killed the gorilla, why not let mature take its course. Or do we say the child can't help that it is born to stupid parents so as netween gorilla and child, gorilla always had to lose.

Two other gorillas were in that area and responed to calls to come inside. Deceased gorilla didn't respond. Does the gorilla bear any of the responsibility? Was be born there? Or captured in wild and brought there?

Maybe somethings, like Orcas just were not meant to be locked up?

That is supposed to be one of the top Zoos in the World, and in top 5 in US.

[Travis In Austin]

Search youtube for "gorilla saves boy" There are too many to post

[T2K]

One more thing:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36426608

 

 

Poor little angels. There should have been barriers built around all the broken items so as to help the parents watch after the kids. We all know that kids are much smarter and more active now than at any time in the history of mankind.

 

Keith

[Gilbert]

 

Responsible parents keep an eye on their kids. Freeways are dangerous too.

 

Kids should have to wear a lease with harness attached to their parents with a harness.

 

 

Keith

 

Silly comment.

 

When people go to a zoo, or whatever, they should be in a reasonably safe environment.

 

Inclusive of enough safety for at least, the far majority of "normalcy"

 

Including children, not necessarily including the relatively very small % of like.suicidal mentally ill for example.

 

Guarding against the likes of that would be (subjectively of course) prohibitive, and would lead to your suggestions.   Lars

 

This was NOT.

 

O, and BTW, my children never had bike helmets growing up.    Lars

 

 

 

Actually Keith's comment is not silly, not at all. Child leases are readily available, there's a reason for that, and I don't think it's a silly one, unless it's being diagnosed by the silly mind, or irresponsible people.

 

Anyone, absolutely anyone, with multiple children of that certain age (which can vary depending on parenting, and mental capacity) can confirm the difficulties and impossible task associated with being 100% protective. Parental diligence is the best safety net for children. If you're the type that depends on the codes and/or the government, you need to be biach slapped and given a wake-up call.

 

As to being able to feel reasonably safe,... please define "Reasonably Safe". As I see it, the zoo accomplished this, because this appears to have been an isolated incident. Think....... try,..... how many 10's of thousands of visitors travel through the zoo per week/month/year, versus how many children, teens and adults are falling into the animal containment pens......  this may be tough for you to figure out, but if 1 person in 1,000,000+ visitors climbs over the fence or gains access to dangerous animals, I think it's safe to say that a reasonable expectation of safety has been met.

 

 

 

 

 

T2K - Do you know that even the most basic of building codes in the US (Don't get on me here if I'm like a year off or something) have prohibited for like 15 years or so, any deck railing that may be "climbable" (horizontal footholds) ???? And this is for like a backyard deck something like anything over 24 or 30 inches above adjacent grade level???

 

 

Wow, an arm chair engineer is quoting building code. You'll have to remind me which section of which "Basic" building code that specification falls under, because I've been reading and following the structural and architectural sections of the building codes for more than 25 yrs.

 

None of the following codes that I'm familiar with contain any such provision, Not OSHA, Not ASCE-7, Not IBC, Not BOCA, Not SBC, Not UBC, Not the New York Code, Not the Wisconsin Code, Not the South Florida Code, Not even the sometimes over-the-top California Building Code have any such ridiculous specifications. I've not designed or been involved with the design of any zoo containment pens, and I would suspect there exist a code or min. standard, and whether or not that standard has been satisfied was the responsibility of not only the designer, and the municipality/county/state that issued the permit of occupancy.

 

Designers are not free to spend the owners money at their own leisure for what they perceive is safe-enough, let alone idiot proof. No one can afford idiot proof. Call me crazy, but I think it's safe to say that there's no shortage of people who would consider the parent or guardian of that child, as being an idiot. Idiot is probably a bit harsh, but it goes to prove my point.

 

If you want child proof, idiot proof,.... yes, it can be done with 99.9% confidence, but you better get ready to dig deep into your wallet. And you'd better be willing to accept the consequences for that 0.1%. Little Johnny is out there, he's waiting to test your idea of safety, rules be damned.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Gilbert

[Paducah Home Theater]

Anyone, absolutely anyone, with multiple children of that certain age (which can vary depending on parenting, and mental capacity) can confirm the difficulties and impossible task associated with being 100% protective. Parental diligence is the best safety net for children. If you're the type that depends on the codes and/or the government, you need to be biach slapped and given a wake-up call.

 

Doing a 180 on my previous comments here... have you ever noticed that some kids are WAY more prone to do stupid stuff like this on a regular basis?  Some kids are raised in an environment with very little discipline and in some regards even seem to raise themselves.  Pay attention to the worst offenders in public sometime then notice the parents.  Let's just say that typically it's not the respectful conservative upper-middle class church going collared-shirt wearing type of folks who this happens to on a regular basis.  

 

Based on this, I'm not sure that "protective" is the right term.  Protective is not letting them ride a dirt bike where they might hurt themselves.  This has more to do with discipline, and teaching them how to act in public.  When a kid thinks he can get away with virtually anything, they're going to do stupid stuff like this.  I've seen trashy people sit there and tell their kids "no" (without actually doing anything beyond that) like 50 times in a row and their kid just kept getting worse, like he got a thrill from doing something he knew he wasn't supposed to be doing, but also apparently knew there was not going to be any real consequences.  

Edited June 2, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Gilbert]

I'm not capable of associating that stupid stuff kids do with any particular parental type, because I've seen and/or read about it happening to all types..... but I think you nailed it with the "environment with little discipline" comment.

 

 

 

 

Protective is not letting them ride a dirt bike where they might hurt themselves.

 

When I was younger, not even a governed 5 mph dirt bike traveling on an elevated track made of sponges and with a safety net could have kept me safe. If there was a limit, I'd find it on just about anything, especially my dad's patience..... which are low anyway.

 

 

 

This comment from the Zoo's management.....

 

"The zoo said there had been no earlier breaches in Gorilla World's 38-year history and that the previous barrier had passed multiple inspections by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums, which accredits zoos."

 

"Our exhibit goes above and beyond standard safety requirements, but in light of what happened, we have modified the outer public barrier to make entry even more difficult," zoo director Thane Maynard said in a statement."

 

1 incident in the past 38 years.   Hmmmm, I think it's safe to say that a reasonable expectation for safety was satisfied for the general public. But barrier height is being increased anyway and the cost for a safety net have been approved......

 

Little Johnny is out there, his mother could be the future wife of that little boy, and he's going to be putting the zoo's added safety provisions to the test.

 

Lawyer's are on the ready, pencil, paper and business cards ready to be put to good/bad use.... I wonder how much the Zoo is going to have to shell out for little Johnny.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Gilbert

[wvu80]

Doing a 180 on my previous comments here... have you ever noticed that some kids are WAY more prone to do stupid stuff like this on a regular basis?

 

So, you've read this thread, considered different viewpoints and are modifying your views based on new information and facts? 

 

As long as you're changing your opinion to agree with mine, you're OK in my book.   

+++

 

I was a mental health professional at one time in my misspent youth.  I used to work for the the state in Youth Services so I've evaluated parents and children in terms of lawful standards for abuse and neglect cases by parents and went to court 2-3 times per week representing the state along with the assistant DA.  My opinion here counts no more or less than any other person in this discussion.

 

We also have other professions represented here, like lawyers.  Gilbert has identified himself as an architectural or engineering professional.  Even within professions there are disagreements.  In my little world the only person who had the last word was the judge.

 

All of the opinions I've seen here have been reasonable and rational.  Even when we disagree with each other, most of us can concede the other may have a valid point, at least that's how I feel.

 

I will tell you as a professional that the incident will be investigated by the local Child Protective Services, and the parent will be held to the standard of the law.  There is NO DOUBT when there is a high profile case like this CPS gets excited and may put more resources to bear, but the parent ultimately will be held to whatever the law is.  Not public opinion, and not ridiculous internet petitions to have the children removed, but THE LAW.

 

We are all entitled to our opinions, and those opinions may change or move from time-to-time.  I think that is a healthy process.

 

And then after all is said and done, The Judge will have the last word.

Edited June 2, 2016 by wvu80

[Tarheel]

Jane Goodall, Primatologist, wrote a letter to the zoo director offering condolences and saying it appeared Harambe was attempting to protect the child.  Goodall has dedicated her life to preservation or the great apes and knows as much about their mannerisms and behavior as anyone. 

 

Certainly no winners here other than the media that's getting a lot of mileage out of this

[CECAA850]

More clarification on the barrier from a zoo spokesman.

 

The zoo said there had been no earlier breaches in Gorilla World's 38-year history and that the previous barrier had passed multiple inspections by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums, which accredits zoos.

 

 

 

Of note, they will be making modifications including raising the rail 6" and netting on the top and bottom of the barricade.  I'm betting it could still be breached without too much effort.

[Gilbert]

I don't know, 6 inches is a huge increase..... oh wait, we're talking barriers...... never mind.

 

 

 

Mean while, at another zoo enclosure pen, surveillance cameras have captured little Johnny testing their barriers for a possible slip hazard during a rain storm.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Gilbert

[Fjd]

 

 

Responsible parents keep an eye on their kids. Freeways are dangerous too.

 

Kids should have to wear a lease with harness attached to their parents with a harness.

 

 

Keith

 

Silly comment.

 

When people go to a zoo, or whatever, they should be in a reasonably safe environment.

 

Inclusive of enough safety for at least, the far majority of "normalcy"

 

Including children, not necessarily including the relatively very small % of like.suicidal mentally ill for example.

 

Guarding against the likes of that would be (subjectively of course) prohibitive, and would lead to your suggestions.   Lars

 

This was NOT.

 

O, and BTW, my children never had bike helmets growing up.    Lars

 

 

 

Actually Keith's comment is not silly, not at all. Child leases are readily available, there's a reason for that, and I don't think it's a silly one, unless it's being diagnosed by the silly mind, or irresponsible people.

 

Anyone, absolutely anyone, with multiple children of that certain age (which can vary depending on parenting, and mental capacity) can confirm the difficulties and impossible task associated with being 100% protective. Parental diligence is the best safety net for children. If you're the type that depends on the codes and/or the government, you need to be biach slapped and given a wake-up call.

 

 

 

 

Child leashes have come a long way and are now often disguised as back packs.   I know a couple of young mothers that felt the panic of a missing child that are now proponents of using the child harnesses when they must have the children in riskier situations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does anyone remember the story in 2015 where the parent was dangling the child over the railing at the Zoo for a better view and dropped the child into the cheetah exhibit?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/12/us/cleveland-zoo-cheetah-fall/

 

Do most parents actually know how to act safely while visiting the zoo and watch out for the safety for those under their care? 

 

Well obviously not. Let’s see where else we can place blame.  What about the school system?  Of course, if that darn education system required course work on “zoo safety precautions.” Since the school system failed us, maybe the Zoo could pick up where the school systems failed?  

 

Maybe the Zoo should install barbed wire and motion detectors that sound really loud and obnoxious alarms at the area of breach; and require child harnesses attached to the child and attached to an adult for children under nine years old.

 

What about an hour course that would include online testing and scoring that parents and children must pass with a 75% score before entering the Zoo?  Is 75% enough, or would this type of score be determinant that the person still does not understand “zoo safety precautions.”  Should the score be 90%?

 

The general course learning topics could include;

 

Learn how not to dangle your children over the edge of a barrier for a better view of the animal.

 

Learn how to read and follow the directions given on all warning signs posted at the Zoo.

 

Learn how not to let your children tease the animals while you watch or take pictures or video tape the actions.

 

Learn how to keep your child close at all times, especially if the child is too young to read the Zoo warning signs.

 

Learn how to just say NO to a photo of your child when that child wants to put his or her head into the mouth of a lion or alligator regardless of how cute you think the photo opportunity might be.

 

Learn how to teach your child how to show a general level of overall respect for the wild animals, especially since these animals will run the risk of reacting to an unusual situation on instinct vs any amount of training that animal may have.

 

 

 

.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Fjd

[Gilbert]

Lord knows the uber rich would never act so stupidity. Everybody knows money buys brains.....  or is it the hotels fault for that shortly constructed wimpy railing.