.

[mikebse2a3]

19 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

Although not mentioning I was referring to the fact that steeper slopes can significantly reduce the energy to the driver around cutoff, more so than the shallower slopes.  This translates to less drive at those frequencies.  In my own experimentation using the ALK ESNs, what I stated is what I hear, and how my equipment behaves.  With those very steep slope networks you just don't get that same level of dynamics jumping out of the speakers like on the shallower slope ALK networks at approximately the same volumes (unscientific of course).  However, on the steeper slope ALKs I do notice better clarity and especially as the volume gets louder compared to the shallower sloped ALK versions.

 

Interesting...Mark

 

I have a friend with Khorns (AK-3 networks) whos system I'm very familiar with over many years now. A few years back now I installed the AK-4 update kit (from Klipsch) to his Khorns and the improvement in detail /clarity leading to a perception of improved dynamics in bass/mid range of the system was obvious for several who experienced it at the time.

 

Note: I want to add that while his system is not perfectly setup it is very clean in the modal region of the room so the mudding masking effect of many listening rooms didn't mask the changes to his Khorns.

 

miketn

 

[muel]

At anything below 80db the ES networks sound recessed to me.  I simply could not resist the need to turn the volume up.  Sounds GOOD loud!  They are still going clear and strong at the loudest volumes where the AA's start to fall apart.  Love the AA's at all other volumes (up to 95db or so).  I shouldn't be listening that loud for long anyway.

[mikebse2a3]

9 minutes ago, Deang said:

Yes. But if you sit relatively close in a moderately sized listening room - the presentation is, as Mark said - more immediate and dynamic. 

 

Near field listening can help in many ways leading to the perception you describe as well Dean.

 

I believe it is very important that everyone understands that if important parameters aren't being held constant then to draw valid and repeatable conclusions of something (ie: crossovers in this case) is not likely.

 

miketn

[Deang]

All I can tell you is that if you compare first order electrical to higher order filters - the audible effects and differences are readily apparent. 

 

Less theory - more building and listening! 

[dtel's wife]

6 minutes ago, Deang said:

All I can tell you is that if you compare first order electrical to higher order filters - the audible effects and differences are readily apparent. 

 

Less theory - more building and listening! 

I always thought "theory" was relative to building and listening. I learn something new every day. 

[CECAA850]

11 minutes ago, dtel's wife said:

I always thought "theory" was relative to building and listening. I learn something new every day. 

It is but there comes a point in time when you need to apply the theory in the real world where you can test your theory out.

[dtel's wife]

Just now, CECAA850 said:

It is but there comes a point in time when you need to apply the theory in the real world where you can test your theory out.

Oh. As in "prototype"???  

[CECAA850]

Just now, dtel's wife said:

Oh. As in "prototype"???  

As you can hypothesize about what something does but building it will let you know for sure.

[dtel's wife]

6 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

As you can hypothesize about what something does but building it will let you know for sure.

Exactly. 

[CECAA850]

3 minutes ago, dtel's wife said:

Exactly. 

I guess we were saying the same thing then.

[mikebse2a3]

11 minutes ago, muel said:

At anything below 80db the ES networks sound recessed to me.  I simply could not resist the need to turn the volume up.  Sounds GOOD loud!  They are still going clear and strong at the loudest volumes where the AA's start to fall apart.  Love the AA's at all other volumes (up to 95db or so).  I shouldn't be listening that loud for long anyway.

 

How did you have the ES networks attenuation options set..?

 

I run active crossovers with my Jubs and I can make slight adjustments and it is amazing what .5 to 2db in the region from 500hz and 2khz will do for the problem you describe.

 

I have often found the need to turn a system up is a sign of  the loudspeaker itself is out of balance (if it has adjustment options) as well as room acoustical issues unbalancing the frequency spectrum for the listener.

 

It could also be the fact that the ES network isn't necessarily an optimized design for your loudspeakers versus an actual Klipsch designed network and this might have more to do with someone's perception differences rather than whether it's a steeper slope or not.

 

Note: It's important to remember that Klipsch designs and uses balancing networks which combines EQ as well as crossover functions and are tested to make sure the system components are balanced properly.  After market networks = ?

 

miketn

 

 

[mikebse2a3]

47 minutes ago, Deang said:

All I can tell you is that if you compare first order electrical to higher order filters - the audible effects and differences are readily apparent. 

 

Less theory - more building and listening! 

 

Please don't act like myself or designers like Roy who often designs steeper slopes don't listen Dean.

 

Does anyone hear believe Klipsch doesn't perform listening test...?

 

My point is if anyone isn't controlling the important variables how do you form valid conclusions..? Listening or Measuring..!!!

 

miketn

[Deang]

Now you're building a straw man. I didn't say or infer any of those things. I know Roy "listens", and I know he's more than competent. All we're talking about is the perceived sonic differences between the A and AA, to EXTREME slope filters. 

 

Must measure AND listen. The AA was designed by PWK, and we have measurements out the wazoo for that filter. It sounds fine - I think PWK did a nice job with that simple design - it sounds great!

[Deang]

Groan. 

[muel]

1 hour ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

How did you have the ES networks attenuation options set..?

 

I run active crossovers with my Jubs and I can make slight adjustments and it is amazing what .5 to 2db in the region from 500hz and 2khz will do for the problem you describe.

 

I have often found the need to turn a system up is a sign of  the loudspeaker itself is out of balance (if it has adjustment options) as well as room acoustical issues unbalancing the frequency spectrum for the listener.

 

It could also be the fact that the ES network isn't necessarily an optimized design for your loudspeakers versus an actual Klipsch designed network and this might have more to do with someone's perception differences rather than whether it's a steeper slope or not.

 

Note: It's important to remember that Klipsch designs and uses balancing networks which combines EQ as well as crossover functions and are tested to make sure the system components are balanced properly.  After market networks = ?

 

miketn

 

 

Well, I don't do much measuring but I do a lot of listening.  It is difficult to remember all the settings but I can tell you that I did mess around a lot with the attenuation on the mids.  I started with Al's suggested amount but I varied it until I was happiest.  I do confess that my room had much worse problems at that time than it does now (still working on that).   I'll have to look for my notes to see what other info I have.

[mikebse2a3]

1 hour ago, Deang said:

Now you're building a straw man. I didn't say or infer any of those things. I know Roy "listens", and I know he's more than competent. All we're talking about is the perceived sonic differences between the A and AA, to EXTREME slope filters. 

 

Must measure AND listen. The AA was designed by PWK, and we have measurements out the wazoo for that filter. It sounds fine - I think PWK did a nice job with that simple design - it sounds great!

 

No straw man Dean.... but when you responded with " Less theory - more building and listening! " how did you expect me to take it..?

 

The only reason I mention Roy is he is someone most everyone I hope respects for his knowledge and skills and if he finds steeper slopes offers sonic benefits among others benefits then I hope it spurs a deeper thought into why when he could  and I believe would use whatever slope gave him the sound he wanted a design to have.

 

Roy has also pointed out that PWK was very interested and was researching steeper slope filters and I believe there is good reason why (besides driver protection) over the years he didn't stop with the A or AA network for his loudspeaker designs.

 

My main point is I see people coming to the conclusion that the Extreme Slope Filters are inferior to the A or AA but is it the rate of slope that is responsible or could it be that the frequency balance of the system has changed so much that what is being perceived is a result of this change..? I think it's important to blame or credit what is actually causing what we are perceiving.

 

Please understand all the A or AA users that I don't think your wrong for using what works for you and makes you happy but I do think it's important to understand why whenever possible.

 

Anyway I hope everyone has a great "4th of July" ...!!!  I've got 9 days in a row off  and I don't want to spend that time trying to defend my position/comments on this subject since I hope it is pretty plain by now that all I'm doing is urging others to keep an open mind and hopefully reach for a better understanding of why they perceive and like what they choose.

 

miketn

[mikebse2a3]

54 minutes ago, muel said:

Well, I don't do much measuring but I do a lot of listening.  It is difficult to remember all the settings but I can tell you that I did mess around a lot with the attenuation on the mids.  I started with Al's suggested amount but I varied it until I was happiest.  I do confess that my room had much worse problems at that time than it does now (still working on that).   I'll have to look for my notes to see what other info I have.

 

Thanks for the response muel....

 

Rooms have such a major influence on the perceived sound. You probably already know this but I do want to point out that we perceive our loudspeakers early sound before room reflections and later room reflections sounds as well as room modal colorations to form an overall perception of the reproduction and one of the weaknesses of using a crossover network or Equalizer to re-voice the loudspeaker from factory balancing is we are compromising the early sound accuracy to compensate for often inferior later reflective sound and room modal colorations and even though we might achieve a limited overall perceived improvement it will never be a good as possible vs when we work on where the real problem is which is the room's colorations needing to be directly addressed.

 

miketn

 

ps. I also suspect this is why PWK never offered adjustable networks for his factory optimized loudspeakers and instead suggested that if you place a very high quality loudspeaker in your room and it sounds bad then it would be well worth spending one's time and effort on fixing the room issues.

[JohnA]

19 hours ago, avguytx said:

I have a pair of AA's that I got with the Belle parts I bought from another member on this forum.  Based on all of this, should I just stay with what they are and update the capacitors and let 'em rip?  It's not that often I get to lay down on the volume throttle so it's more happy average anymore.  Using a new pair of K-33's, K-55-V's, and CT-120's.

 

@Deang and anyone else that cares to reply.  

 

With those tweeters you can disconnect the KLiP diodes and let 'er rip.  At least up to 140 watts.    Actually, at that level, you really ought to replace the woofer inductor, it will saturate before then. 

[avguytx]

I'd only be running a VTA ST-70 to them for as efficient as they'll be. But if a new inductor would make an SQ  difference, I'd spring for that. 

[jimjimbo]

Thread bump, and a great thread it is.....finally getting around to building a new pair of networks with all new parts including Jupiter VT and Audiocap PPT Theta caps.  The Jupiters are huge, and I've had to reassess my board size and layout for which this thread has been very helpful.  Thank you again Dean for all of this information.