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boxerjake

imaging ?

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On 3/5/2018 at 8:57 PM, boxerjake said:

How many of you have actually experienced a 2 channel system with amazing soundstage imagining ...

 

By that I mean sitting in a room with a 2 channel setup that puts vocals right infront of your face with no trace of the source , yet can still maintain  left and right soundstage separation .

 

I find it an amazing experience every time I listen to a dialed in 2 channel setup that I can close my eyes and feel like there is a stage right in front of me, yet the speakers are in the corners and you'd fully expect the sound to be projected from that area , yet it's not .

 

I've spent thousands over the years seeking the holy grail and I'm totally jealous when I come across a fellow audio nutcase that's reached my goal  ...

 

It's truly amazing when it all comes together .. those that have experience it, can attest to what I mean .

 

I have recently invested in some used Carver Amazing Platinums and AL-III's. Both are Ribbon Dipole designs. Ever since I experienced an Open Baffle speaker, about 5 years ago at a friends house, I was simply BLOWN AWAY by the 3 Dimensionality of Dipole speakers. Read up on Linkwitz Labs for 4-way dynamic speaker kits and all the TECH stuff you can handle. In my case, it's only 2-way. Either Open Baffle from 18-120 Hz. to a 60 inch ribbon, or Bass Reflex from 24-150 Hz. to a 45 inch ribbon. They are extremely placement dependent (plus I PEQ them with Yamaha digital stuff). But boy the DEPTH is nothing short of incredible. Now at 87 db/1 watt input, they need 20-40 times more power than my horns. BUT, since I only listen to about 80-86 db at my sweet spot, this is not a problem with modern solid state amplifiers. Don't get me wrong, NOTHING beats horns for loud DYNAMICS, but these Carvers, at NORMAL listening levels give you a 3 D depth that no horn system can touch. For me, it's NOT one or the other, it's BOTH!!

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5 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

For me, it's NOT one or the other, it's BOTH!!

Besides, all this "HiFi" and "Imaging" BS is just a grand ILLUSION...................go hear a live acoustic concert in a living room or small venue and you will go home and throw ROCKS at whatever system you own. 3D indeed!! Even PWK, who was a Symphony Fanatic (he played his recordings for me at his home and they were excellent), said that the best you can do is come as close as you can to a live performance. Grand Illusions indeed!

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On 3/5/2018 at 11:09 PM, ODS123 said:

 I listen to almost all Beatles music in mono.

There are many more of us than you think!!

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On 3/6/2018 at 10:02 AM, Deang said:

Easy to do with a set of small monitors on good stands, and pulled away from the corners and walls. Use a sub or two to fill in the bottom.

 

I use Klipsch because I like the dynamics/realism. The more real is sounds, the less I care about imaging. However, I have a very good phantom center with the LaScalas, though it does lack depth of field at low volumes -- easily overcome with a little more volume.

Having had Khorns right out of college, with big Corwall-like 3-ways using Altec Voice of the Theater components in home made big boxes before that, I can honestly say that LaScalas' better Phase Coherence (the difference between the bass and mid horns is less than 1/4 wave at 400 Hz.) allows them to image better than Khorns, which is one of the reasons they sound so good. Also, I seem to prefer bass horns with fewer folds, which is why my Quarter Pie Bass horn sounded so good.

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23 hours ago, jwc said:

My family and local friends are more interested in the clarity, big sound coming out,  and room shaking bass.

 

IOW, low distortion.

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20 hours ago, Chris A said:

It also relates to how the clarity of MEH-type loudspeakers is tied to polar good directivity control vs. frequency, low phase growth, and effective point source output as well as suppressing early reflections (0.7 to about 5 ms related delays) via increasing the ratio of low phase growth direct-to-reflected energy in room.

 

Chris

Which is why my Danley SH-50's rule in the horn department. They are smaller than LaScalas can pass a square wave from 250-2,500 hz. (howzat for phase coherence), yet they go as low as Khorns, and, when up against side walls they have too much bass, which, when cutting, lowers IM distortion. It's like a single driver but with full horn dynamics.......best of all worlds. Yes they image like crazy as most people think I have a center channel ON when it's actually OFF and I have to disconnect it to prove it to unbelievers.

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1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

IOW, low distortion.

I think everyone loves low distortion whether they realize it or not.  They may not be aware of what they are appreciating.

 

If I invite people to my house and we are hanging out in the cave, there is no appreciation for 3d sound, imaging, sound stage, or vocals in the middle of the room.  They have more interest in the furniture and walls vibrating, clarity, details,dynamics, and maybe stereo separation.

 

If I'm on my own, fire up the tube CD player, tube preamp and tube amps...and move the Cornscalas out about 3 feet from wall and about 10-15 feet apart........break out the wiskey or scotch....then there is a different kind of appreciation goin' on.

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14 minutes ago, jwc said:

I think everyone loves low distortion whether they realize it or not.

 

Are you speaking professionally or in terms of audio?  If the former, it'll never stand up in court, or anywhere else. :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, jwc said:

I think everyone loves low distortion whether they realize it or not.  They may not be aware of what they are appreciating.

 

If I invite people to my house and we are hanging out in the cave, there is no appreciation for 3d sound, imaging, sound stage, or vocals in the middle of the room.  They have more interest in the furniture and walls vibrating, clarity, details,dynamics, and maybe stereo separation.

 

If I'm on my own, fire up the tube CD player, tube preamp and tube amps...and move the Cornscalas out about 3 feet from wall and about 10-15 feet apart........break out the wiskey or scotch....then there is a different kind of appreciation goin' on.

Moving speakers away from walls is counter to what PWK said, since he was trying to lower IM distortion by corner loading at all cost. So he insisted that ALL speakers worked better in the corner,  at least from a bass boost standpoint. In my own experience with SH-50's and Carver Amazing Platinums OUT OF CORNERS, the improvement in sound state and imaging makes the trade off well worthwhile, since having them in corners messes that up. So I agree with your notion here about moving Cornscalas out of corners. Besides, my Danley SH-50's were designed to be flat OUTDOORS, so moving them anywhere into any  room (in my case also in open loft) make for some sweet imaging while preserving dynamics, and STILL the bass has to be cut back a bit. JC, you need to take a drive to DSL HQ with Mark 1101 since y'all live so close. Ask for  an appointment with JP and tell him Claude sent you. Then let me know what you think.

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1 hour ago, jwc said:

there is no appreciation for 3d sound, imaging, sound stage, or vocals in the middle of the room

This type of "high end" LISTENING is inherently anti-social, as is the sweet spot. When you have other people there, it's a different dynamic and requirement. But when you're alone......it's different.

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13 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

JC, you need to take a drive to DSL HQ with Mark 1101 since y'all live so close. Ask for  an appointment with JP and tell him Claude sent you. Then let me know what you think.

We have talked about it for a long time since it is so close.  It will happen.  I would do it for the experience and fun of hangin' out with Mark mostly.  It would take some serious persuasion for me to buy "floorstanding" horn speakers that weren't Klipsch.  Subwoofers could be another consideration.....but I'm not hot on that either.  I'm still in pause mode on waiting for the Klipsch 1502s to come out if ever.  Not even sure I will get new subs or not....mine sound fine to me.  Heck I'm still slowly selling off all the stuff I have here right now.  If two coffins showed up at my house with a shop already stacked full of speakers, my wife will hire a hitman.

 

Apologize to the OP..........didn't mean to steer away from IMAGING :)

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7 minutes ago, jwc said:

I would do it for the experience and fun of hangin' out with Mark mostly.  It would take some serious persuasion for me to buy "floorstanding" horn speakers that weren't Klipsch.

My suggestion was not to make a sale, but rather for you to easily experience how good small horns can be when done in a different way that has been done for 100 years. Just know that theirs is not an ideal demo room for their subs either since it's a large industrial building. But you should experience the BC-218 and the BC-415 (my favorite) since you be a bass man all the way. It's a cool way to spend an hour since you live so close. I had to drive 12 hours to do it, so no excuses for YOU!!

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On 3/5/2018 at 7:57 PM, boxerjake said:

How many of you have actually experienced a 2 channel system with amazing soundstage imagining ...

Perhaps more than you might imagine...

 

 

On 3/5/2018 at 7:57 PM, boxerjake said:

By that I mean sitting in a room with a 2 channel setup that puts vocals right in front of your face with no trace of the source , yet can still maintain  left and right soundstage separation...I find it an amazing experience every time I listen to a dialed in 2 channel setup that I can close my eyes and feel like there is a stage right in front of me, yet the speakers are in the corners and you'd fully expect the sound to be projected from that area , yet it's not .

 

Perhaps it might helpful for you to post a picture of your listening room with your setup and your listening position...?  Others might benefit more from that.

 

JMTC.

 

Chris

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On 6/3/2018 at 6:47 AM, boxerjake said:

 

Have to disagree .. obviously you've never experienced what I'm explaining ...

 

I've got 10's of thousands of FLAC files and run what is arguably the finest Bryston  digital player on the market , top of the line VPI table and a HDCD worth more than my pickup truck ...

 

It's not source dependent  ....   It's a combination of room treatments , speakers and amps .

 

Tonight I was at my best friends place , his room is full of treatments .. his gear is top of the line krell mono blocks feeding a pair of Focals worth about as much as I paid for my first house 20 years ago ...

 

The music was right there in my face ... I could see the towers standing in the corners yet I couldn't hear the music coming from them .. it was being projected directly in front of me ... absolutely an amazing listening experience . nothing I've ever came close to in the past 30 years of being faithful to k-horns , belles . lascala's , cornwalls and or  hersey's . 

 

I'm not slamming any klipsch gear .. I've owned everything klipsch has even made ... just never reached this level of amazing before

You owned the P39 too then? I never heard k horns. But a good friend of mine have P39   running of Hegel monoblocks with four Palladium subs and i absolutely get the feeling you are talking about every time i visit him. My systems doesn't even come close. 

He did however propably spend as much money on room treatment as i did on speakers. And I don't have a dedicated listening room as i seldom sit down to actively listen to music.

I think it is amazing to listen to when it all comes together, don't get my wrong. I just almost never have the time.

Maybe someday you know! 🙂

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I have been considering some Belles. I have always loved their appearance.  However it takes only ONE review like this to make me very cautious:

 

audioaddictNH   AudioPhile [Nov 05, 2003]
Strength:

Power, clarity and mid bass tonality

Weakness:

Imaging

The Belle is simply a fun speaker. It is not the most accurate speaker I've ever owned by a wide margin but it's ability to convey power and emotion may be as good as I've heard and I've owned a large number of high end speakers( Duntech Marquis, Celestion 700, Quad 63,Magnepan MG 3 and 3A and about a dozen others). If you enjoy "big music" large symphonic, opera or real rock these speakers do a many things right. If pinpoint imaging is critical forget these but if tonality in the lower mids and bass are important then seriously consider these speakers. These guys move air! You can feel the music. I'm using a Golden Tube SE40SE tube amp on them with an Audible Illusions preamp and these guys sing. I have my Quads in another system for music that is less demanding and where imaging and spatial characteristics are key, but when you put music on the Belles that has real kick it's hard to keep from smiling.

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6 minutes ago, kink56 said:

not the most accurate speaker I've ever owned by a wide margin

 

6 minutes ago, kink56 said:

I've owned a large number of high end speakers( Duntech Marquis, Celestion 700, Quad 63,Magnepan MG 3 and 3A and about a dozen others).

Compared to speakers reviewer has owned.

 

That review would not shy me away from Belles at all.

 

From my experience, imaging is very recording and room specific.

 

Bill

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Yes, recording specific, and anyone commenting on imaging would take that into account.  He would be using the same recordings and his own room for comparison.  One would never use a recording that has poor imaging and soundstage to comment on a component's imaging and soundstage.  As for room YES!  My friend's room images better than mine regardless of the equipment.  We have much of the same equipment and we audition and trade off equipment.   My best imaging speakers, ProAc Super Towers imaged even much better in his room.   This reviewer has had a lot of different speakers and he thinks of all the things Klipsch does well, imaging isn't their "Forte'" (pun intended).    And since imaging and soundstage is so important to me I am reluctant.   That being said my Forte I speaker do a decent job with imaging, but they are on the bottom of the stack of all the speakers I have had in this regard.  But the other things they do well keeps them around in my rotation.   I get bored with them, then I listen to my Rogers Studio 1A for a while, which have about the same bass extension as the Forte I but image like a son of a gun. Plus they have even better mids and highs. But they are two-way design.  If I were to get Belles, I would not have room or the energy to move them around once put. 

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I have belles, khorns, and various other klipsch speakers. My belles are not leaving my possession. I think they image well.

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2 minutes ago, jazzer said:

do lascalas image well in a 2 channel only set up?

Does a fat baby fart?  IMO, lascala one of the best imaging speakers. ;)

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