Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

[Dave A]

https://www.2luxury2.com/owners-of-smart-speakers-are-different-from-those-who-dont-own-one/

 

"The survey of over 1,000 U.S. consumers showed that 76 percent of smart speaker owners increased their use of voice assistants in the last year. The increasing collaborations with smart ecosystem providers is propelling the demand for new products in this segment in the global market."

 

  When no one else believes you there is a speaker for that

[Tizman]

Ecosystem?  Okay.

[windashine]

… o O ( Fiberglass moldings- Speaker's resembling ear cavities)

… ---> thanks to the engineer's we won't have to look at the Rolling Stones' lip's after cashing in an equity fund....

.. in what some beginner's may consider over mdf… or is it mfd... or sawdust … or pnoe moon beam's ?...  or 

 

[Tizman]

5 hours ago, Deang said:

Over 5500 views on this thread. Lmao. 

People love Jerry Springer too.  Controversy with little content keeps me coming back for more.  My favourite part of this thread is having a heated debate with lovers of MDF.  I had no idea anyone could be so enamoured with pulped wood and resin.  Plywood, on the other hand, is dead sexy.  I’m going to search the web for some plywood porn now.  There’s bound to be some out there...

[ODS123]

5 hours ago, Tizman said:

My favourite part of this thread is having a heated debate with lovers of MDF. I had no idea anyone could be so enamoured with pulped wood and resin.  Plywood, on the other hand, is dead sexy.  I’m going to search the web for some plywood porn now. 

 

You have that all wrong.  It's you and a few others who have turned owning plywood speakers into some sort of badge of good-taste and distinction.  No one is trying to do that with MDF.   I'm just pushing back on your unsubstantiated contention that all speakers made with MDF reflect penny-pinching corporate values and are by definition "crap", no matter what their intended application.  You persist with this despite the fact that nearly all speakers these days are made from this material.  

 

I think any beginners still following this thread will take your implication that ALL speakers from Klipsch (except pro-series), Vandersteen, PSB, Paradigm, KEF, Legacy, B&W, and so on and so on are crap to be utterly nonsensical.  Particularly when they can go onto Audiogon and find tons of well preserved decades old speakers made from this material.

[ODS123]

13 hours ago, Dave A said:

Lots of old Baltic Birch built speakers still around but somehow I don't think the average life of MDF will ever be close.

 

That's nonsense. There's no reason to think that such speakers properly cared for won't hold up for years and years.  Go on Audiogon and you'll see TONS of 30+ year old speakers, many (if not most) of which have cabinets made of MDF.

 

Dave..  You haven't answered my question.  Why come to a Klipsch sponsored (and paid for) User Forum and essentially trash every speaker they make except the line you happen to own?  

[Marvel]

Oki day... my 1972 JBL 4311 studio monitors are a nice walnut veneer over mdf, but they have been owned by me since new. They also haven't been subjected to moisture. My heresy IIs are still ok so far.

 

If I were building my own, I would use BB or other higgh grade cabinet ply. MDF is tough on tools, very tough. Large areas of mdf will sag over time. Wouldn't be good for those spans ona set of mwm bins. I mostly don't ha ve a problem with smaller boxes, but it surely better not get wet.

[ODS123]

45 minutes ago, Marvel said:

my 1972 JBL 4311 studio monitors are a nice walnut veneer over mdf, but they have been owned by me since new. They also haven't been subjected to moisture. My heresy IIs are still ok so far.

 

"not exposed to moisture"  ..Ok, but is that so hard to accomplish?  

 

I have a 150 year old cabinet and 100 year old corner cupboard in my house - handed down by grandparents and parents - that also have  never been exposed to moisture.  Along with a toaster, 2 TV's an old iMac and about 5 table lamps.  Those, along with my turntable, amplifiers, and 500+ vinyl LPs have never  been exposed to standing or dripping water - and I don't think I've been working particularly hard at making that so.   Am I missing something  ?  ..Are people maybe routinely dragging their gear out into the rain to enjoy a nice listening session out in the elements?  

 

I think the challenges of keeping gear dry is being a bit over stated.

 

 

 

[DizRotus]

My initial, and for many years only, exposure to Klipsch was original plywood Heritage.  If it didn’t come with a tweeter from 600 Cecil Street, Buchanan, Michigan, I wasn’t interested.  Then I heard Glenn’s @picky home theater system several years ago.  That experience opened my ears and eyes.

 

Quality MDF and other engineered lumber have their place.  In my DIY builds, I usually start with Baltic birch plywood.  Quality speaker enclosures can be built from many different materials.  To say that plywood is always paramount and MDF is always crap is simplistic and incorrect.

 

On the diyaudio forum, there are threads dedicated to enclosures made from foam-board.  The first photo below shows such a project “Mini-Karlsonator” with the side still open.  The foam-board prototype sounded so good, I made several pairs out of 0.25” BB ply.  Cost of production was irrelevant.

 

 

The photo below shows a boombox made from a Parts Express MDF flat pack.  For $29 it couldn’t be beat.  Without those, I would have used BB ply.

 

 

The photo below shows one of my DIY “Super Heresys” made from 0.75” BB ply and some assorted Klipsch and Eminence components.

 

 

The photo below shows a closeup on an H2 motorboard.  Compare the plys to the BB ply in the 2nd photo below.  Not all “MDF” (Medium Density Fiberboard) is made the same.  Some is more dense, which also causes saw blades and tools to wear out more quickly.  At the low end of the spectrum is OSB (Oriented Strand Board), which I’ve used to make prototypes of back-loaded horn enclosures.  Nobody even mentioned hardwood, which is fine for violins, guitars, etc., which are meant to resonate, but not so great for speaker boxes.  

 

The BB ply is sitting on my DIY “Super” finished in Duratex.  Quality MDF is, IMO, preferable to inferior (low number of plys) plywood.

 

 

The photo below shows my man dump.  The Fostex FE-103 single drivers visible under the TV and on the left next to the picanic basket (Yogi, not a spelling error) are made from the same PE MDF enclosures as the boombox, for the same reasons.

 

The four Lil’Mike Anarchy Exodus Tapped Horn subs (one visible under the single driver on the left) were made from diyaudio 0.50” BB ply flatpacks.  When flatpacks were no longer available from diyaudio, I scratch built a fifth from BB ply.  I can’t imagine using MDF in that application.

 

FYI, the foreground has a stacked pair of KP-201s (now flying in a middle school band room) and a stacked pair of HIP still in my inventory.  This is what happens when your sponsor is unavailable and eBay is available.

 

 

The final photo illustrates some other differences between Heritage and Pro.  Traditional Heritage came with cheap  barrier strip terminals.  I always replace those with Neutrik Speakon connectors.  From a marketing standpoint, that would make no sense.  To a DIY person, it makes complete sense.

 

Note the KP-201 originally had a female jack for a 0.25” guitar plug which I replaced with a Speakon.

 

 

Lastly,  the use of the word “Beginners” in the title of this thread suggests, unintentionally I hope, a subtle arrogance.  IMO, it’s not so much your time of interest in the hobby as it is your willingness to be objective and learn.

 

Peace!

[ODS123]

1 hour ago, DizRotus said:

 

Lastly,  the use of the word “Beginners” in the title of this thread suggests, unintentionally I hope, a subtle arrogance.  IMO, it’s not so much your time of interest in the hobby as it is your willingness to be objective and learn.

 

Peace!

 

Thanks for the interesting posting.  As for your final comment, I'm sorry but I don't see the arrogance.  yes, there's been a lot of arrogance on display in this thread but I don't think it's inherent in the title I chose.  My intent with this thread was to tell beginners that before spending heavily on front end electronics to read what those who did found out when they compared their gear with those who didn't. ..Basically, arguing for an affordable, common-sense approach to this hobby.   Compare and contrast that with the several who have basically sought to tell anyone who owns speakers made of MDF that they own junk.  Or the guy who is telling me my amplifier is garbage because it has autoformers (?).  Honestly, that's the arrogance I see being displayed here.

 

[Tizman]

Dizrotus:  Yes of course.  Many materials can be used to build speakers.  You know this and have built many speakers as a DIY guy.  I am also a DIY guy, and I’m old school and build to last.  Forever preferably.  I avoid materials and components that have a set lifespan or are more fragile.  In my amps, that means avoiding electrolytic capacitors for example.  Many, if not most, high quality tube amps produced by manufacturers for sale use electrolytics.  They are cheaper and smaller.  Does that mean that they are the best type to use?  No it does not.  I think that the tension in this thread is mostly due to members either being DIY guys or not.  ODS123 does not appear to be a DIY guy, I am one.  He has many choices, and has picked some very nice gear based on his choices, but he really couldn’t have bought a plywood Cornwall new today.  As a DIYer, I can, and do, make whatever I want out of whatever materials I want.  I have more choices.  I can make a 1” BB plywood Cornwall if I want with all the same parts.  I can then upgrade the stock crossover with an ALK one, etc.   The conversation about MDF vs plywood in this thread really does reflect the tension between people who buy stuff new and those that buy used stuff or DIY.  If you are going to buy new, how are you going to buy plywood speakers?  On the other hand, if you are a beginner who wants Klipsch, and you don’t have a large budget, you can buy used Klipsch Heritage, which means plywood.  The MDF vs plywood conversation is a bit pointless and dumb actually. Entertaining?  Perhaps.  But not really useful.  The all amps sound the same based on THD measurements conversation, on the other hand is worthy of conversation.  Just because ODS123’s excellent Mac amp is SS and sounds good, doesn’t mean that you can pick an amp based on low measured THD alone and have good results.  This is obvious to me and many many others.  Including, for example, Nelson Pass.

[Tizman]

👀

[Deang]

2 hours ago, ODS123 said:

Compare and contrast that with the several who have basically sought to tell anyone who owns speakers made of MDF that they own junk.  Or the guy who is telling me my amplifier is garbage because it has autoformers (?).  Honestly, that's the arrogance I see being displayed here.

 

The argument is that 7-ply Baltic Birch is a better building material, not that things built with MDF are “junk”. 

 

The point about your amp was that it has output transformers like tube amps do - which was said because you kept knocking tube amps. He didn’t say your amp was “garbage”.

[ODS123]

1 hour ago, Deang said:

 

The argument is that 7-ply Baltic Birch is a better building material, not that things built with MDF are “junk”. 

 

From Tizman on Page 10:   "MDF is disposable garbage."

 

 

 

 

[Tizman]

"MDF is disposable garbage" is from a DIY speaker builders perspective.  Mine.  I have built 2 speakers out of MDF.  It was a nightmare compared to plywood. 

[Tizman]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 10:57 PM, ODS123 said:

As to your first question, why not tube amps?  Because most Tube amps are not, by design, low distortion devices.  They add distortion which, while pleasing to some, is not necessarily faithful to the original signal. 

Not true.  Good tube amps are designed to be low distortion devices, and are much lower distortion devices than speakers.  One of the things that does create some distortion in tube amps is output transformers.  But lets not get into that..

[Tizman]

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 7:16 AM, ODS123 said:

When friends ask me why some audiophiles still prefer tubes I tell them that my hunch is it’s more about their old-timey appearance and their fond memories of audio during their youth than it is about some clear “musical” advantage. IMHO, tubes are romanticized in much the same way as turntables and vinyl.  

 

[Tizman]

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 10:38 PM, ODS123 said:

As for SET amps, as I've already stated.  I'll pass, I want a linear amp.  If/ when I want to season to taste, I'll use my tone controls, or if need be, get an equalizer.  I can appreciate how the glow of the filaments has a seductive quality but the age of tubes has long passed.  

 

[Deang]

I’d say once it takes a hit or gets wet, it basically is. You’ve been lucky, I’ve had a few speakers damaged that I couldn’t repair because the stuff just crumbles. It’s just one of the things that goes along with a lot of kids and pets. 

 

Anyways, no one commented on my ABX blog/article, which was kind of interesting. 

 

As for “beginners”, speakers typically take the bigger part of the budget by default. It would be rare to find someone who doesn’t have their eyes on more speaker than they can afford. Better electronics are saved for future upgrades - and then back to speakers again. No one really needs to be told this, it’s just how it works. 

 

I feel bad for HT folks. That’s a sizable investment in the loudspeaker department. I think what happens here is that many settle for less speaker than they want - because they need so many. 

 

I dont know if there is anyone left who remembers all of the different amps and preamps I ran through before finances took a turn. I honestly think it’s an illness of sorts. It’s not so much looking for the Holy Grail, but just wanting to experience the different presentations. 

 

This is probably not a good analogy, and most are far from perfect:

 

There was a time in my life where I did not care for beer - at all. In a DBT, the only thing I would have been able to determine is that they taste bad. “Yes, A and B taste bad, and by the way, I don’t which X is, but it tastes bad too.

 

After 20 years though, not can I only discern a Stout, IPA, and Lager - but there is a good chance I can tell you which IPA you just handed me. 

 

So, there’s something to be said for exposure/experience. 

 

Hearing doesn’t just involve the ears, but the brain too. The ear/brain mechanism is complex, and I’m convinced DBT somehow disrupts the mechanics of how that relationship works. 

 

Never in my forty years of doing this did I ever say, “Wow, the last three amplifiers I tried sound the same - I guess they’re all pretty much the same - so my next amp is going to be a $200 Sherwood from parts-express, and that will be it for me.”

 

Real listening involves, well, listening. I don’t think an analytical process is always conducive to that.

 

So, back to capacitors ...

[Dave A]

13 hours ago, windashine said:

. in what some beginner's may consider over mdf… or is it mfd... or sawdust … or pnoe moon beam's ?...  or 

How about some Woofer's? Probably not MDF though.