Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

[MEH Synergy]

Just now, pzannucci said:

True,

Nothing wrong with MDF if done properly.  Also has different frequency characteristics compared to ply.  If you aren't in the habit of dropping your speakers from 3 feet in the air, it is quite good.

I've built a lot of speakers, screwed and glued with proper bracing as should always be done, enclosures can be VERY tough.  VERY heavy too. 

I didn't want to stir the pot on this one, but after doing so with many higher car audio systems over the years and basically every speaker I ever owned being made out of MDF except for my pro cabs, I wholeheartedly agree.   MDF can withstand TREMENDOUS internal pressure.   Granted I wouldn't tote my MDF cabs around for pro use as I know that the cabs wouldn't hold up well over time.   However, given the option between the two, I would take a plywood cab over an MDF.   

[TubeHiFiNut]

9 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Mine were built in my Mom's garage. 20 cubic foot Bass Reflex using Altec Woofers, Altec VOT 500 B horns with 808 drivers. had 4 pairs  with about a Kilowatt of amplification. I pre recorded dance music on my Crown Reel to Reel, rented a U-Haul, set it up for big parties of 200-600 people, and got paid to drink beer and dance with the girls...............until Travolta came out with Saturday Night fever and you had to become a DJ with a microphone, so I got into professional photography instead.

Way to go Claude! Back then, that was Heaven to all 20-something males.

[TubeHiFiNut]

32 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

 

I was always taught you write to your audience. 

 

You do realize, don't you, that a newbie would not understand a single bit of your last sentence? 

That is true. 😄

 

In my defense, that post was not directed at a newbie.

[Dave A]

1 hour ago, pzannucci said:

Fantastic summary.  Stick around for more (or possibly not as you said).  

This isn't too bad yet.

Add to it

"mine is better than yours"

"No it isn't better"

[TubeHiFiNut]

"Less filling"

"Tastes great"

 

Pretty much sums up most of these exchanges.

[Tizman]

5 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

I apologize, I didnt realize you were quoting ODS, my bad.

No worries Shakey.  It’s all good.  To be honest this thread has put me in a place where I’m not exactly the best Tizman I can be.  For a little perspective on the OP, check out his previous content.  He is consistent.  Very consistent.  Also, I’ve changed my mind.  When I pass away, I want to be buried in an MDF coffin.  It takes veneer very, very nicely.  The handles can be reinforced with a bit of plywood so that the screws don’t pull out when my hefty carcass is being hauled to its final resting place.  Also, I want all my NOS tubes buried with me.  I’m pretty sure there are only SET amps in Heaven.

[Deang]

Since ODS has only been here a year, I wondered where he came from -  Audiokarma of course. So I spent about a half hour reading his posts over there, which pretty much read like they do here. I had trouble sleeping last night, and the posts were a perfect recipe for that. 

[Tizman]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 10:31 AM, ODS123 said:

Both Systems were played through ATC SCM 12 passive Studio Monitor speakers connected w/ Tempflex speaker Cables

These are the speakers used in the original test referred to in the first post.  85 DB/W/M.  This is the speaker they chose as a reference point for their ABX?  A nearfield studio monitor of abysmal sensitivity?  Why?  Both amps in the ABX were solid state AB push pull amplifiers with negative feedback.  As a SET guy, and I realize that this is my bias, both amps are four kinds of wrong.  I would expect far more similarities than differences.  Topologies are similar although execution is obviously not.  Also, changing everything but the speakers makes this is a dumb ABX test.  What are you testing, and what made a difference if it was heard?  My bet is that is was the interconnects... 

[wvu80]

4 hours ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

5 hours ago, wvu80 said:

You do realize, don't you, that a newbie would not understand a single bit of your last sentence? 

That is true. 😄

 

In my defense, that post was not directed at a newbie.

 

Oh, I know.  It just caught my funny bone the way all us "regulars" have our own language. 

 

It also tickles my funny bone that this post was kind of a "heads up" to newbies not to put too much credibility in how much a speaker costs when picking out good sound and the thread has deteriorated between knowledgeable posters about the merits of one building material over another, as if ANY new user would give a crap.

 

That's not a shot at anybody who has weighed in on the subject.  It's just that as a group we men are such right fighters!  We can't help it, it's just our nature.  🤓

[TubeHiFiNut]

36 minutes ago, Tizman said:

Also, changing everything but the speakers makes this is a dumb ABX test.  What are you testing, and what made a difference if it was heard.

 

Good observation and question.

 

DBTs might be useful for some things but, in my opinion, audio is not one of those things.

[garyrc]

2 hours ago, Tizman said:

These are the speakers used in the original test referred to in the first post.  85 DB/W/M.

 

 

These are speakers of shockingly low sensitivity. 

 

To get low distortion Reference peaks (105 dB at the main listening position) in my medium sized (~~~4,200 cu. ft.) room at 13 feet away, it would take about 350 watts with a single one of those speakers.  Typical speakers (~~~ 90 dB/2.83v/1M) would need about 128 watts.  Klipsch fully horn loaded speakers would take about 15 watts.

 

To produce Paul Klipsch's, "blood stirring levels of a live symphony orchestra," (115 dB for very brief transients "at your ears") each of these would need 10 times the power listed above.

[Tizman]

28 minutes ago, garyrc said:

 

These are speakers of shockingly low sensitivity. 

Yes, and although they are described as near field, it doesn't appear that they were used that way in the test.  It's a bit hard to tell from the photos, but it would appear that the listening position is further than what would normally be referred to as near field.  Also, the speakers are not toed in in the fashion that I normally associate with near field listening.  The distance might be a larger issue though, especially considering the very low sensitivity of these speakers.

[Dave A]

4 hours ago, wvu80 said:

Oh, I know.  It just caught my funny bone the way all us "regulars" have our own language. 

 

It also tickles my funny bone that this post was kind of a "heads up" to newbies not to put too much credibility in how much a speaker costs when picking out good sound and the thread has deteriorated between knowledgeable posters about the merits of one building material over another, as if ANY new user would give a crap.

 

That's not a shot at anybody who has weighed in on the subject.  It's just that as a group we men are such right fighters!  We can't help it, it's just our nature.  🤓

Gosh Dave and here you go picking on us all. Must be the chromosome thing eh ;D

[wvu80]

1 minute ago, Dave A said:

Gosh Dave and here you go picking on us all. Must be the chromosome thing eh ;D

LOL!  I included myself, in fact I might be the President of the Right Fighters, according to my wife. 

 

She would be wrong, of course. 

[jason str]

On 12/28/2018 at 4:40 PM, ODS123 said:

 

https://www.inchcalculator.com/how-much-does-plywood-weigh/

 

Really?  99.5 lbs vs. 71.5 lbs for a 3/4" 4 x 8' sheet.  ..hardly minimal.  That's 28lbs = 39% heavier.  

 

With this in mind, I think it's probably cheaper to build with Birch considering the significant increase in shipping costs for MDF.    So why did Klipsch change??  Could well be that MDF's density and consistency from sheet to sheet simply makes it a better choice for precision speakers..  ..Nothing to get so exercised over.  Would love to hear details on how Klipsch felt the MDF La Scala sounded better than the Birch.

 

You guys seem to be attaching some sort of pride-of-ownership badge to Plywood that defies all reason.

 

I was looking from my supplier not from one general one from the internet.

 

5 Lb difference 1/2" 4 x 8' stock

 

just over 10 Lb in 1" thickness.

 

MDF being heavier.

[Tizman]

I'm thinking I'm going to abandon ship on this thread.  There's enough good signal among the noise to dissuade anyone new to the hobby from taking the noise seriously.  Here are my Cole's Notes:

1.  The original test that the OP referred to is flawed in numerous ways, and not to be taken as gospel. 

2.  MDF vs BB ply?  I prefer the BB, but I'm not going to kick a set of La Scala II or Cornwall III out of bed for eating crackers.  Also, I would still buy MDF speakers if I liked them, and have in the past, but I don't want to use MDF for DIY.

3.  Start with a set of sensitive and, preferably, horn based speakers that don't require 400 Watts a channel to power properly.  The more horns, and the least direct radiator speakers, the better.  A nice set of Klipsch speakers, of at least 95 DB/W/M sensitivity (more is always better), is my recommendation for anyone starting up. 

4.  Make up your own mind about what amp and front end you prefer, but starting with the speakers recommended in point 3 will allow you to choose almost any amplifier and get good dynamics and volume.  This includes my personal favourite, a SET tube amplifier.  A pair of 85 DB/W/M DR speakers, on the other hand, will severely limit your choices.  

 

That's it.  I'm going to keep my eye on this thread, but unless something really annoying/ludicrous comes up, I'm not going to post anymore.  Time to work on the two amps, crossover and two way horn set I have going. 

 

Have a Happy New Year!

[Dave A]

1 hour ago, Tizman said:

I'm thinking I'm going to abandon ship on this thread.  There's enough good signal among the noise to dissuade anyone new to the hobby from taking the noise seriously.  Here are my Cole's Notes:

1.  The original test that the OP referred to is flawed in numerous ways, and not to be taken as gospel. 

2.  MDF vs BB ply?  I prefer the BB, but I'm not going to kick a set of La Scala II or Cornwall III out of bed for eating crackers.  Also, I would still buy MDF speakers if I liked them, and have in the past, but I don't want to use MDF for DIY.

3.  Start with a set of sensitive and, preferably, horn based speakers that don't require 400 Watts a channel to power properly.  The more horns, and the least direct radiator speakers, the better.  A nice set of Klipsch speakers, of at least 95 DB/W/M sensitivity (more is always better), is my recommendation for anyone starting up. 

4.  Make up your own mind about what amp and front end you prefer, but starting with the speakers recommended in point 3 will allow you to choose almost any amplifier and get good dynamics and volume.  This includes my personal favourite, a SET tube amplifier.  A pair of 85 DB/W/M DR speakers, on the other hand, will severely limit your choices.  

 

That's it.  I'm going to keep my eye on this thread, but unless something really annoying/ludicrous comes up, I'm not going to post anymore.  Time to work on the two amps, crossover and two way horn set I have going. 

 

Have a Happy New Year!

I think so too. This thread just needs to end although it has been amusing at times. Happy New years everyone.

[Marvel]

Well, I finally looked at the link in post 1. The ATC SCM12s,  besides being inefficient, are NEARFIELD MONITORS. That usually means you are no more than 3-6 feet away. It's no wonder they couldn't tell much difference... should have tried everything through a good horn system, or at least a much higher sensitivity speaker.

 

The ATCs are flat and the highs roll off slightly. If you sit back from them and they aren't pointed directly at you, you won't be able to discern much detail.

 

With enough power and used as designed, they would probably work fine.

[ODS123]

11 hours ago, Tizman said:

Yes, and although they are described as near field, it doesn't appear that they were used that way in the test.  It's a bit hard to tell from the photos, but it would appear that the listening position is further than what would normally be referred to as near field.  Also, the speakers are not toed in in the fashion that I normally associate with near field listening.  The distance might be a larger issue though, especially considering the very low sensitivity of these speakers.

 

Every audiophile who believes differences b/w amps are audible will contend that their speakers are revealing enough to allow such differences to be heard - that includes the group from this club.  Unfortunately, its predictable that if the results of the comparison are not a compelling endorsement of audible differences, the quality of the speakers will then be called into question. 

 

I’ll remind beginners reading this thread that the aforementioned Richard Clark $10,000 Amplifier Challenge award offered to anyone who can reliably identify one amp from another (provided both are designed to be linear and are not over-driven) was not limited to ANY particular speaker.  Indeed, participants could use their own speakers or headphones. Again, thousands tried and none claimed the $10k by reliably distinguishing one amp from another.  

 

 As for these ATC’s, while I’ve not taken the time to do so I can almost promise that a google search on these speakers will yield reviews (user and/ or magazine) where the reviews states “these speakers easily allowed me to hear differences b/w amplifiers” as the statement seems to be part of every speaker review.  And that none of the setup provisos called out here for tainting the test were mentioned.

[ODS123]

7 hours ago, jason str said:

 

I was looking from my supplier not from one general one from the internet.

 

5 Lb difference 1/2" 4 x 8' stock

 

just over 10 Lb in 1" thickness.

 

MDF being heavier.

 

Simply not true.  ..Check multiple sources, not just your supplier.  ..Perhaps he thought you meant particle board, or a LDF.