MEH Synergy Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Oh BTW, guess what he did for a living? You guessed it, photographer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted January 5, 2019 Author Share Posted January 5, 2019 24 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said: I don't care whether PWK would have agreed or not. Electronics have come A LONG way since he unfortunately left this earth. Yes, they have. The challenges of making a small signal larger without distorting it have been largely solved. 24 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said: BTW, when I demoed them for the buyer, he almost didn't buy them as he stated they sounded AWFUL on a vintage Yamaha receiver. Guess what I did? I had him help me carry them into my living room and took 30 minutes or so hooking them up and positioning them just so and guess what? He said "DAMN, Thai is the best sounding system I have heard, and I have heard A LOT". His words, not mine. They were hooked up to a Parasound Halo Integrated playing FLAC to high res files. Well, I don't know if the vintage Yamaha qualifies as "linear" (ie., does it have a F/R, THD, IMD, S/N ratio etc.. beyond our hearing threshold) but I would say it's entirely possible that moving the speakers into another room may have had everything to do with what he and you were hearing Room acoustics count a great deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, ODS123 said: Yes, they have. The challenges of making a small signal larger without distorting it have been largely solved. Well, I don't know if the vintage Yamaha qualifies as "linear" (ie., do it have a F/R, THD, IMD, S/N ratio etc.. beyond our hearing threshold) but I would say it's entirely possible that moving the speakers into another room may have had everything to do with what he and you were hearing Room acoustics count a great deal. Damn you hit the nail on the head. I failed to mention that he requested to hear the same amp in my mian listening area, which I did and he quickly stated that he had heard enough. I asked him to let me hook up proper equipment to demo, and his opinion flipped 360. When I sell something, I only test for functionality as I assume all will know when spending this kind of coin thay results will vary tremendously with room and gear. This guy needed to HEAR the difference in gear, not the room, nor the speakers. Again. He was a photographer. Had nothing to do with sound but wanted something "High end and nice". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 26 minutes ago, ODS123 said: If you can listen for hours with "0" listener fatigue then you may be missing something from the original performance because an accurate system WILL eventually cause listening fatigue That is, if the goal of a system is to recreate the live performance. Live music, even when played by the best musicians, WILL eventually cause listening fatigue if listened to loud enough and long enough. Woodwinds, trumpets/cornets, flutes, even violins If listened to long enough will begin to grate. This is partly why I long ago insisted on tone controls. After 3 or 4 hours of listening, a 1/4 counter clockwise turn of the treble control will allow me to continue on. I had hoped most would use common sense when reading my statement. I hope we all know fatigue can be induced by listening at live levels over extended periods. As far as Tone Controls in my experience the basic bass and treble controls fall far short of what I believe is necessary to deal with the majority of recordings tonal imbalances and I find the 8 bands of the McIntosh C50 invaluable to me and my enjoyment of my system. Many Recordings that I would find fatiguing in a very short time can be rebalanced to be more accurate and less fatiguing very quickly in many instances. And before anybody says that’s what the engineer and artist wanted me to experience I say bullshit 😄. As Floyd’s Toole has so well pointed out there is no real universal standards in the recording industry which leads to a real circle of confusion where it’s almost impossible to know what we we’re intended to experience by the recording engineers and artists. miketn http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html?m=1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 1 minute ago, mikebse2a3 said: I had hoped most would use common sense when reading my statement. I hope we all know fatigue can be induced by listening at live levels over extended periods. As far as Tone Controls in my experience the basic bass and treble controls fall far short of what I believe is necessary to deal with the majority of recordings tonal imbalances and I find the 8 bands of the McIntosh C50 invaluable to me and my enjoyment of my system. Many Recordings that I would find fatiguing in a very short time can be rebalanced to be more accurate and less fatiguing very quickly in many instances. And before anybody says that’s what the engineer and artist wanted me to experience I say bullshit 😄. As Floyd’s Toole has so well pointed out there is no real universal standards in the recording industry which leads to a real circle of confusion where it’s almost impossible to know what we we’re intended to experience by the recording engineers and artists. miketn http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html?m=1 What the engineer intended is so different than your preference. The engineer intended on the best possible translation of what he or she mixed and (what was mastered and put of his or her hands) to translate as well as possible to as many systems as possible. A tough job indeed. This is only the mixing engineers prospective. There is then the recording and mastering engineers perspective aside from that. As the audio goes down the line, each is limited to what each engineer committed to prior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 3 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said: My favorite EL34 amplifier is the Marantz 8B which doesn’t have the edginess of the Dynaco and Knight amplifiers I have serviced, owned and listened to many times. When PWK gave me a tour of the Museum in Hope, August, 1985, I was using a recapped Marantz 8B on my Khorns. I said, "Mr. Klipsch, you can't put that amp in a museum, I'm using one at home now." To which he replied: "That's a very good amplifier." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted January 5, 2019 Author Share Posted January 5, 2019 32 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said: I had hoped most would use common sense when reading my statement. I hope we all know fatigue can be induced by listening at live levels over extended periods. As far as Tone Controls in my experience the basic bass and treble controls fall far short of what I believe is necessary to deal with the majority of recordings tonal imbalances and I find the 8 bands of the McIntosh C50 invaluable to me and my enjoyment of my system. Many Recordings that I would find fatiguing in a very short time can be rebalanced to be more accurate and less fatiguing very quickly in many instances. And before anybody says that’s what the engineer and artist wanted me to experience I say bullshit 😄. As Floyd’s Toole has so well pointed out there is no real universal standards in the recording industry which leads to a real circle of confusion where it’s almost impossible to know what we we’re intended to experience by the recording engineers and artists. miketn http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html?m=1 I agree with most of what you're saying. And I would have preferred an 8-band equalizer but, alas, at the time bass/treble was the best I could do. ..FWIW, I also find a mono switch to be invaluable. Much of my music is from the early days of Stereo when it was common to have some musicians coming entirely from one speaker and the rest from the other channel. It didn't create a seamless soundstage as much as it sounded like listening to two monaural different recordings - one from each speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 15 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said: 1 hour ago, ODS123 said: If you can listen for hours with "0" listener fatigue then you may be missing something from the original performance because an accurate system WILL eventually cause listening fatigue .... I had hoped most would use common sense when reading my statement. I hope we all know fatigue can be induced by listening at live levels over extended periods. Yep. I was with your endeavor until we got to this point and agree with Mike.....A lot of advance audiophile shit being discussed here but this is a strawman argument from a dude who doesn't have a dog in the race insofar as testing vs real world expectations are concerned. That's my take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted January 5, 2019 Author Share Posted January 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Zen Traveler said: Yep. I was with your endeavor until we got to this point and agree with Mike.....A lot of advance audiophile shit going on her but this is a strawman argument from a dude who doesn't have a dog in the race insofar as testing vs real world expectations are concerned. That's my take. I played live/ unrecorded music for years, and spent an entire lifetime as a music obsessive who has been to countless live performance - both amplified and acoustic. ..I KNOW what real, live music sounds like. ..Not sure what you mean by "a dog in this race" but it's ridiculous to suggest I don't care about fidelity just b/c I don't believe that differences b/w modern day amplifiers - which are designed/ engineered to be linear under normal operating conditions - are audible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 3 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said: I want to say IMHO it’s more important now than at any point in the past that people let go of their preconceived ideas of the past about amplifier designs and there associated sound and actually listen for themselves preferably on the loudspeakers they are to be mated with. Sometimes things just come together in such a synergistic way that will just bring you more pleasure and it’s a very personal experience and matter of personal preference. I think my best advice for a beginner is make it your goal to put together a system that connects you to the music and draws you in to the point that you can listen for hours on end with “0” listener fatigue. Don’t settle for less 🙂 miketn I"m really liking this stuff. Thanks for posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, ODS123 said: I played live/ unrecorded music for years, and spent an entire lifetime as a music obsessive who has been to countless live performance - both amplified and acoustic. ..I KNOW what real, live music sounds like. ..Not sure what you mean by "a dog in this race" but it's ridiculous to suggest I don't care about fidelity just b/c I don't believe that differences b/w modern day amplifiers - which are designed/ engineered to be linear under normal operating conditions - are audible. Then arguably, you may or may not be aware that "THE" sound of live music is what most, if not all "audiophiles" strive for. Those that spend 250K aren't guaranteed it either. If you play live music, I would ASSUME you have an ear for music. If you can't hear the difference between a $6500 McIntosh piece and a $200 receiver I SERIOUSLY wonder about your CRITICAL hearing, no offense. Can you hear the difference between a $100 clarinet from Craigslist and a $5k custom piece? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 17 minutes ago, ODS123 said: but it's ridiculous to suggest I don't care about fidelity just b/c I don't believe that differences b/w modern day amplifiers I was talking about the SPL you seem to be referring to. I took "live" to meant like concert levels for a long period of time instead of lower volume, which I agree with others that shouldn't lead to listener fatigue even after extended periods of time, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 4 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said: I can’t really do better than Gordon Gow’s description in the video Tizman. Thanks Mike. A very informative video, and new information to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 17 hours ago, Tizman said: I did w/ my last three speaker purchases: Vandersteen 3A Sigs (3 way floor-stander); Paradigm S8 v2s (3-way floor stander); and my Klipsch Cornwall III's. In each case I let one play through the night than came down the next am to compared. ..No, not one iota of difference. So you bought three sets of speakers over a period of time, and every time you got your brand new set you did this test? Seriously? That seems very unlikely. Most people would want to hear them immediately, especially if they don't believe that break in has any effect. I think that since this thread is approaching 40 pages, it may be time for another edition of ODS123's greatest hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 16 hours ago, Deang said: I heard from a reputable source how Roy Delgado loosens up the suspensions of woofers before he measures them. I think I'd like to be at least a mile away while he's doing that. When I bought my new Klipschorns, Steve Philips of Klipsch told me to wait at least three days before evaluating them. Richard Marsh of Reliable Capacitor told me that it takes 10-20 for capacitors to "settle down". Mike Sanders of Quicksilver told me the same thing. ODS123 knows better than the gentlemen referred to in this post. He has done the tests required to debunk their claims. Just ask him, and he will tell you what's what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 8 hours ago, ODS123 said: I didn't say there are no linear SET amps. McIntosh SET amps are very linear. As I mentioned earlier, a previous employee at McIntosh said it was common knowledge (though not openly admitted) that NO ONE there was able to reliably able to distinguish their SET amps from their S/S amps. ..Now that is a well engineered SET amp! This one is my favourite. Complete nonsense. A "previous employee" because he believed Mac built SET amps and got fired? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 8 hours ago, ODS123 said: I loved my 3A sigs, but I never bought into his claims about time coherence/ alignment, etc. "time coherence/ alignment, etc." What is this audiophool voodoo? Speaker designers obviously don't understand speaker designing. ODS123 knows better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 3 hours ago, ODS123 said: Yes, they have. The challenges of making a small signal larger without distorting it have been largely solved. Apparently this happened in 1967. Every development since then has been insignificant and not required. Sorry Mr. Pass... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 I feel like whacking someone with a piece of MDF. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Deang said: I feel like whacking someone with a piece of MDF. It's not going to help them. Might feel good though. Soak it in some water first so that its mushy and flexible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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