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ODS123

Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

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Decent AVRs are “linear”, and have onboard EQ. So just buy an AVR. Since a person can’t differentiate between something like that and separates in DBT - just buy an AVR and be done with it. 

 

I'm being facetious.

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5 hours ago, Tizman said:

I would argue that one is not better than the other.

 

As would I.

 

The aspect I find most humorous about this whole topic (expanding it to include more of the "audiophool" kind of stuff - 'test/measurement results be damned, I know what I know') has got to be stuff like 1-gauge cables perched on glass insulators perched on elastomer whatevers and/or how altering the lay of leads makes them require time to "come around".

 

If'n y'ant to use whatever equipment, more power to ya!  Just please (not you specifically - I'm speaking in general terms) step back for a moment and consider what you sound like when you want to say the stuff you're considering saying.

 

Me?  I don't buy that the earth is flat.  I buy that we went to the moon.  I don't buy that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone (if at all).  I buy that one person can get as much enjoyment out of hearing a piece they like on a $25 mono table radio as another does on a 25.6-channel multi-million-dollar system in a perfectly-constructed-and-equipped habitat.

Edited by glens

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5 minutes ago, glens said:

I buy that one person can get as much enjoyment out of hearing a piece they like on a $25 mono table radio as another does on a 25.6-channel multi-million-dollar system in a perfectly-constructed-and-equipped habitat.

 

Agreed.  ..My grandparents enjoyed music as much or more than anyone I know and listened to it on an all-in-one compact system (philco, I believe?) set on the floor of their living room.  And both wore hearing aids to boot.

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14 minutes ago, glens said:

 

The aspect I find most humorous about this whole topic (expanding it to include more of the "audiophool" kind of stuff - 'test/measurement results be damned, I know what I know') has got to be stuff like 1-gauge cables perched on glass insulators perched on elastomer whatevers and/or how altering the lay of leads makes them require time to "come around".

 

 

And this has an unintended consequence.  ..A couple who enters an audio store with the intention of buying a pair of nice floor-standing speakers and something to power them sees the garden hose thick speaker cables and lifters and is met by a  Salesperson who tells them "you should allocate 30% of your spending on interconnects and cabling" may well end deciding , "Well, this ain't for us!" and leave with nothing and instead go on to Amazon to order a Bose SoundDeck or a Sonos set-up.  

 

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6 hours ago, Tizman said:

Yes and, if I understand it correctly, this will vary from speaker to speaker as the variable impedance of a speaker is going to vary according to the design of the speaker.  So, amplifiers will sound different depending on the variable impedance of the speaker used, and the way that the amplifier used reacts to this variable impedance.  What you are saying is that different amplifiers sound different from each other because of the variability of the non-linearity created by this interaction.  Doesn't this mean that given a particular set of speakers, different amps will sound different when used with these speakers?  As in "amps don't all sound the same"?   Also, doesn't this mean that an amps synergy with speakers is an important consideration when picking amplifiers because of the more variable nature, and the much more flawed linearity, of speakers?      

 

While I would like to better understand the perspective and position of the other side of the argument, it will have very little bearing on my future choices. This quote from Lynn Olson, although a bit out of context, pretty much sums up my perspective on the amplifiers and speakers that I use for my own pleasure....

 
"And 85~89 dB/meter audiophile speakers sound flat and dead once you get used to the sound of high-efficiency speakers. Even the Ariels at their modest 92 dB/meter made it hard to enjoy conventional audiophile speakers that are 3~5 dB less efficient. You just hear more, and it sounds more beautiful. Like direct-heated triodes, you don't go back.

It's about surrendering to the emotional experience, just letting go, no more thinking and analyzing, just allowing yourself to be swept away by the music. Not all audiophiles can do this. I've seen some of them, in my own listening room, hold their arms tightly across their chests, fighting off their emotions. Maybe they didn't like what they heard, but the sound quality was ravishing, far above anything at an audio show, and was certainly affecting me and Karna.

I'm kind of letting the cat out of the bag here, but I design audio equipment so the listener can have a deep emotional experience; the technical parameters are simply a means to an end, for the system to get out of the way."
 
For me, after a long trip through audio land, this (mostly) means SET amps and horn speakers for the flawed construct that we call stereo.  My goal is to have my experience of listening to a stereo recording be as close to a real life event as possible.  This is based upon what I hear when I listen to my setup, and how it allows me to connect to the music on an emotional level.  So maybe this means, "when listening to the flawed construct we call a stereo recording, all modern amplifiers engineered to be linear sound the same, and SET amplifiers sound better and are more emotionally involving".  If so, so be it.         

   

Very much agree with this post.

 

Well put, @Tizman :)

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3 hours ago, glens said:

The aspect I find most humorous about this whole topic (expanding it to include more of the "audiophool" kind of stuff - 'test/measurement results be damned, I know what I know') has got to be stuff like 1-gauge cables perched on glass insulators perched on elastomer whatevers and/or how altering the lay of leads makes them require time to "come around".

 

I haven't seen any of that in this thread. What I have seen is some of you conflating serious hobbyists with "audiophools". There's been no discussion or support for 1-gauge cables, $5K power cables, $30K DACs, cable risers, etc - or the idea that measurements don't matter. 

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And please stop saying that no one is saying that all amplifiers sound the same. If the argument is that people can't tell the difference between amplifiers in a DBT, then for all intents and purposes - amplifiers sound the same. To say otherwise is being either disingenuous or obtuse.

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3 hours ago, ODS123 said:

... A couple who enters an audio store with the intention of buying a pair of nice floor-standing speakers and something to power them sees the garden hose thick speaker cables and lifters and is met by a  Salesperson who tells them "you should allocate 30% of your spending on interconnects and cabling" may well end deciding , "Well, this ain't for us!" and leave with nothing and instead go on to Amazon to order a Bose SoundDeck or a Sonos set-up.  

 

Stop presenting unrealistic and silly hypotheticals. 

 

People walk in with a budget. They have some numbers in mind. They also have a good idea of what they are looking for. The store is split into several sections. One of the rooms is dedicated for cost no limit types. The remaining 99% walk around until they find the stuff that falls within their price range. Most sales people have enough sense to walk away for a bit and give the potential customer some space. When the customer is ready, they ask questions. The salesperson will show them some things. A customer is very quick to say, "Well, that's nice, but that's too much money". "No problem, let's go to the next room". And so on ...

 

Yes, cables and wire are part of it, but they are scaled way the hell down for the systems that are selling at the lower price points. It's not the end of the world is someone spends $50 on pair of interconnects -- which will probably last 20 years or more.

 

Thanks to the internet, it's easy to do some research and go in somewhat prepared. In fact, hi-fi shops are going by the wayside -- most just shop from online retailers like Crutchfield, AudioAdvisor, etc.

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4 hours ago, ODS123 said:

I've been away from this thread for a few days....  

 

No, you weren't. You've been lurking, trying to decide when it would be a good time to jump back in ...

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3 hours ago, glens said:

I buy that one person can get as much enjoyment out of hearing a piece they like on a $25 mono table radio as another does on a 25.6-channel multi-million-dollar system in a perfectly-constructed-and-equipped habitat.

I can do that. I own a Bose Soundlink III. I use it in my workroom. It sounds great. It's doing its thing while I'm doing mine. But I'd rather be upstairs listening to my real system. Just because someone can enjoy music through something like that is irrelevant.

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AND buy an external equalizer to adjust to taste.

 

Not on  your f*&(in life.............:ohmy:

 

Shakey

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26 minutes ago, Deang said:

 

No, you weren't. You've been lurking, trying to decide when it would be a good time to jump back in ...

 

Your hostility certainly doesn't reflect well on you.  

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No, but it serves me well. Thank you.

 

Try to keep up.

 

Stop trolling.

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1 minute ago, ODS123 said:

 

Your hostility certainly doesn't reflect well on you.  

 

—- Dean’s the devil in disguise - he casts no reflection—

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47 minutes ago, Deang said:

And please stop saying that no one is saying that all amplifiers sound the same. If the argument is that people can't tell the difference between amplifiers in a DBT, then for all intents and purposes - amplifiers sound the same. To say otherwise is being either disingenuous or obtuse.

 

Why shouldn't he be setting the record straight?  It's true NO ONE is saying all amplifiers sound the same.  That would be ridiculous b/c it's always possible someone's amplifier is either not working properly, driven to clipping, or was engineered to roll-off at a certain frequency.  That's why the "engineered to be linear and operating within it's design limits" or whatever.. matters.  So no, don't stop saying it.   ...It makes it easier for you to attack the claim, but it's not what is being said.

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All linear amplifiers, run within their operating limits - sound the same.

 

Better?

 

I didn't feel the need to qualify the statement because you've said it like 5000 times.

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58 minutes ago, Deang said:

And please stop saying that no one is saying that all amplifiers sound the same. If the argument is that people can't tell the difference between amplifiers in a DBT, then for all intents and purposes - amplifiers sound the same. To say otherwise is being either disingenuous or obtuse.

 OK Dean I am here to say all amplifiers sound the same. There is provably not one iota of difference. I can take you to any showroom and I don't care how many different amps are in there they all sound the same. Now if you go and turn them on that may not be true but most of the time they are not on so most of the time at the very least they all sound the same.

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52 minutes ago, Deang said:

People walk in with a budget. They have some numbers in mind. They also have a good idea of what they are looking for. The store is split into several sections. One of the rooms is dedicated for cost no limit types. The remaining 99% walk around until they find the stuff that falls within their price range. Most sales people have enough sense to walk away for a bit and give the potential customer some space. When the customer is ready, they ask questions. The salesperson will show them some things. A customer is very quick to say, "Well, that's nice, but that's too much money". "No problem, let's go to the next room". And so on ...

Where does this happen?  LA, Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Indianapolis, NYC I can see that.  Is that still available in medium size cities?

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1 minute ago, dwilawyer said:

Where does this happen?  LA, Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Indianapolis, NYC I can see that.  Is that still available in medium size cities?

In Nashville at Hi Fi buys but they don't sell Klipsch and try to talk you into B&W junk.

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