OO1 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted March 1, 2020 Author Share Posted March 1, 2020 8 hours ago, Randyh said: no doubt , the Verticals were designed in the anechoic chamber - Ok, vertical horns sound good to my ear. I have the ALK universals, so there will be some adjusting on the mid and tweet output I’m sure. Hoping to get a listen next time I get up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 The "sound" of the horns, whether vertical or horizontal should be no different so long as you're hearing them from within their dispersion "window." Which is what (in terms of shape) with those horns? My guess is their developed patterns are shaped much as are their mouths, but I've never seen a plot of their output in that regard... (actually, in any regard) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 Horizontal has the largest effect if you move you head from side to side, lateral positioning. Much easier to develop nulls though if you only listen with one chair, are are careful, you are probably good. I go for vertical is it has the least problems and wider sweetspot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 So you're saying the wider dispersion is across the narrower profile? I realise those aren't factory tweeter horns but it seems quite illogical the factory would orient theirs to spread the sound vertically greater than horizontally. I just now perused a PDF I'd fetched for the current KI-362 and the graphs for -6dB angular coverage, through the tweeter range, show roughly 45 degrees total included angle greater dispersion across the wider axis of the horn mouth than across the narrower axis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 56 minutes ago, glens said: So you're saying the wider dispersion is across the narrower profile? I realise those aren't factory tweeter horns but it seems quite illogical the factory would orient theirs to spread the sound vertically greater than horizontally. I just now perused a PDF I'd fetched for the current KI-362 and the graphs for -6dB angular coverage, through the tweeter range, show roughly 45 degrees total included angle greater dispersion across the wider axis of the horn mouth than across the narrower axis. This is a topic which has been discussed at length over the decades. The dispersion characteristics of the K77/EVT35 is very similar in both horizontal and vertical orientations. The diffraction horn used does have slightly wider dispersion across its narrow width but the difference is not great. PWK simply wanted to save some material costs in the KHorn and the LaScala and positioning the K77 horizontally saved money in both cabinet material as well as savings in packing materials and reduced shipping size/weight while it gave very near the same dispersion in the horizontal plane so little performance difference resulted. It was a practical judgment call. Dispersion measurement of the EVT35 are available on line so you can take a look and see for yourself. Paul was a practical man, he had a business to run and he needed to maintain the highest possible levels of economic efficiency and he must have en-devoured to minimize costs where ever possible. You can see this same thinking in his back mounting of the K400 mid horn, over time Paul did surrender to calls to flush mount the horn for a small improvement in measured performance but he never felt the difference was significant and saw no reason to spend more money than necessary until market pressures pressed him to do so. Listening to older LaScala with back of baffle mounted K400 horns it is hard to make the argument against Paul's first call as there is no obvious or apparent problem. I think Paul was quoted as saying that he did not think the change made a dimes worth of difference. Still Market expectations can be a powerful motivator of corporate decisions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted March 1, 2020 Author Share Posted March 1, 2020 18 minutes ago, Randyh said: you can also add an L pad , that would be mounted on the back of the speaker , to avoid having to fiddle with the taps --------Lpads are cheap , but a must for any good pair of speakers , it's like having 4 more preamp controls at your disposal , to fine tune the speakers - That would be interesting. I think the universal ALK has an Lpad for tweeter output. So your saying an Lpad mounted on the rear could control both mid and tweet? That would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 1 hour ago, moray james said: This is a topic which has been discussed at length over the decades. The dispersion characteristics of the K77/EVT35 is very similar in both horizontal and vertical orientations. I also looked at the PDF for the previous version KI-362 which I have on hand. Virtually identical, though one is a K79 horn and the other is K79T, I believe. Neither of which is either the K77 or the MAHL(?) as shown in these speakers... Yet, as stated, the greater dispersion (albeit somewhat marginal) is definitely in the wider-mouth plane as indicated in the various graphs. The reason I looked at those two documents is because Klipsch doesn't provide that data for their "home" speakers, and that model uses the tweeter horn the "home" speakers use. In this case, most obviously, it's a moot point for both reasons... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 Spent a couple hours with the Cornscala's today. Finished with the foam inside and put the back panels back on. Rubbed them out with more teak oil and some 0000 steel wool. They look different from a typical Cornscala, but have character. Think they turned out nice. Ok, I had them set up in my fathers garage for now and wired to my Douk 13W KT88 amp and using my spare Yamaha DVD/CD player. They sounded surprisingly good for the first listen, but the bass wasn't quite there. On the Universal cross over I moved the black wire on the autoformer from 6db to 3db, this gave the mid a very hollow tone, so went back to the 6db setting which I thought sounded pretty nice. Thought it might help boost the bass, but did not. Next I noticed the highs didn't sparkle like they should, so moved the tweeter setting from 2db to 0db. This gave it the sparkle it was missing. I'm still trying to figure where the full bass is at. Ok, new 3015LF drivers, maybe they just need to loosen up? The garage is 24x24, so maybe just a big room? Maybe the amp too small to make them shine. I need to get them inside before I try anymore adjustments on the crossover. My amp does have 4 and 8ohm output jacks and I figured since the woofer is 4ohm I should be on 4ohm output jacks? I need a whole day with them and the thumper amp. Components DE85, DE120 and Kappalite 3015LF. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_flht Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 Pics, please You make a very good job, your's Cornscala is very great, bravo 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 2 hours ago, mopardave said: Spent a couple hours with the Cornscala's today. Finished with the foam inside and put the back panels back on. Rubbed them out with more teak oil and some 0000 steel wool. They look different from a typical Cornscala, but have character. Think they turned out nice. Ok, I had them set up in my fathers garage for now and wired to my Douk 13W KT88 amp and using my spare Yamaha DVD/CD player. They sounded surprisingly good for the first listen, but the bass wasn't quite there. On the Universal cross over I moved the black wire on the autoformer from 6db to 3db, this gave the mid a very hollow tone, so went back to the 6db setting which I thought sounded pretty nice. Thought it might help boost the bass, but did not. Next I noticed the highs didn't sparkle like they should, so moved the tweeter setting from 2db to 0db. This gave it the sparkle it was missing. I'm still trying to figure where the full bass is at. Ok, new 3015LF drivers, maybe they just need to loosen up? The garage is 24x24, so maybe just a big room? Maybe the amp too small to make them shine. I need to get them inside before I try anymore adjustments on the crossover. My amp does have 4 and 8ohm output jacks and I figured since the woofer is 4ohm I should be on 4ohm output jacks? I need a whole day with them and the thumper amp. Components DE85, DE120 and Kappalite 3015LF. No Pics? If the woofers are new I'd think they'd need some time to loosen up at least a few hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 1 minute ago, mustang_flht said: Pics, please You make a very good job, your's Cornscala is very great, bravo 👍 I don't have any fresh pics yet, but will once the grills are complete. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 Just now, jjptkd said: No Pics? If the woofers are new I'd think they'd need some time to loosen up at least a few hours I have been reading and some have had same issue using the ALK cornscala universal crossover. Not sure this is the problem yet, hope not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_flht Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 On my CWIII mod : K33E Klipsch 4ohm, HF 103 Faital 16ohm et DE120 8ohm >>> I aligned like this: K33E full - HF103 + K704: -10db - DE120 + K79: - 5db I think that to find the bass from 3015LF to around 98db, you should also lower DE85 (about 108 db) by about 10 db (to be refined according to your preference) and then align DE120 (106db) according to your taste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_flht Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 On 3/1/2020 at 5:06 PM, mopardave said: That would be interesting. I think the universal ALK has an Lpad for tweeter output. So your saying an Lpad mounted on the rear could control both mid and tweet? That would be nice. If I read your manual correctly: first try -9db or - 12db for DE85 and -6 or -4 db for DE120 and tell us if things are better. Note : If you do not have these Lpad transformers on your Universal Network, tell us and we can help you calculate Lpad for your DE85 and DE120. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 9 minutes ago, mustang_flht said: On my CWIII mod : K33E Klipsch 4ohm, HF 103 Faital 16ohm et DE120 8ohm >>> I aligned like this: K33E full - HF103 + K704: -10db - DE120 + K79: - 5db I think that to find the bass from 3015LF to around 98db, you should also lower DE85 (about 108 db) by about 10 db (to be refined according to your preference) and then align DE120 (106db) according to your taste Thanks a bunch. I can do that. Just need to change mid tap to equal 16db attenuation. I can go as much as 18db attenuation with the cornscala/ wall ALK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, mustang_flht said: If I read your manual correctly: first try -9db or - 12db for DE85 and -6 or -4 db for DE120 and tell us if things are better. I will give this a try. It will be 3 weeks before I get back up there to try. Can't wait. I currently have tweeter on 0db , but can go all the way to 8db cut if need be. 0 gave best definition at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 12 minutes ago, mustang_flht said: If I read your manual correctly: first try -9db or - 12db for DE85 and -6 or -4 db for DE120 and tell us if things are better. Note : If you do not have these Lpad transformers on your Universal Network, tell us and we can help you calculate Lpad for your DE85 and DE120. I have just whats in the picture. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_flht Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 If I read correctly you have to combine: for example for - 10db you have to do 12db -2db = 10db of attenuation for your DE85. After lowering DE120 by 4, 5 or 6 db Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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