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ClaudeJ1

Why You Tube speaker reviews are so poor...........

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3 hours ago, Chris A said:

Are you aware that Guttenberg's reviews of Klipsch loudspeakers has probably significantly influenced an increase in sales?

Awareness of an obvious probability by exposure does not necessarily translate into significant increase in sales. Unless you have statistical data on the 600M speakers sales, before and after Mr. Gutenberg's review, methinks thou may be presuming too much. My "awareness" or lack thereof, as you so put it, does not negate my original point about not hearing the speakers and just TALK. Besides, we have some great recording technology (I just received my Zoom H6 yesterday), so I intend to practice what I preach. I think this could be done, so rather than simply wish someone like him should do it, I'll be figuring out for myself. Resolution and signal to noise ratios are not a problem, especially if I use the equivalent to a pair of $2,000 test microphones from Earthworks at the front end with 24/96Khz. recording. I have heard some very accurate sound from an H6 demo on YouTube. The key to running a normalized test is control and repeat-ability with all stated technical conditions. This much like a studio test setup for camera performance at Digital Photography Review (DPReview).

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17 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

The key to running a normalized test is control and repeat-ability

Any reviewer could have access to the same files here:

https://archive.org/details/audio

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Happy New Year, guys.    🥳 

 

Chris

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Any critic lives on their consistent reputation more than their daily content. The term is relevance and individuals define the credibility of their preferred sources. Some will like certain ‘critics’ over others and for a variety of reasons (rational or otherwise). If you wish to reference this critic here then please share that. I do not know of him but others feel his opinions matter and his style works.

 

As for accuracy, honesty and representation just look at the political pundits who easily tell versions of the same event 180 degrees opposed. It is opinion and few pundits let the facts sway their perspectives. This is why reputation validates any pundit or critic. If they get it ‘correct’ most of the time people will listen and they will believe.

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There are many vids on Youtube that are quite well recorded and are a pleasure to listen to. Those who review audio gear without taking the time to do a little demo, lose my interest fairly quickly.  AVshowreports, however does a nice job in posting their vids.    He raps about the gear for a time, then gets out of frame and lets the system do its thing. For myself, since I am not that interested in people going on and on about gear,  I hit the FF button until the humans fade from view and hit play.   

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/AVshowreports/videos

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I'm with Oldtimer.  I believe that putting the sound though a microphone and putting it on the Internet, and then playing back can not possibly reveal the merits of a speaker.

 

OTOH, I'm an ex-New Yorker and Gutenberg's personality is familiar.

 

Yes, Best of New Years everyone.

 

WMcD

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

Happy New Year, guys.    🥳 

 

Chris

You too, Chris. Happy New Year. I think I speak for many people when I say: Your contributions here are much appreciated. You are the sharpest leaf in the tree, so to speak. Whether long or short/many paragraphs, be the fruit of those words, I hear nothing but good things about vous, monsieur! Keep doing what you do so well.

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I recorded my LS playing in my room using  a couple of different microphone techniques and placements, until I had one that sounded the same to my ears as the original. It can certainly be done in a manner that a listener may find useful.

 

Along the same vein, it's also possible to make an mp3 with dynamic range and few artifacts, but there are some methods to use that few seem to comprehend.

 

Bruce

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9 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Awareness of an obvious probability by exposure does not necessarily translate into significant increase in sales. Unless you have statistical data on the 600M speakers sales, before and after Mr. Gutenberg's review, methinks thou may be presuming too much. My "awareness" or lack thereof, as you so put it, does not negate my original point about not hearing the speakers and just TALK. Besides, we have some great recording technology (I just received my Zoom H6 yesterday), so I intend to practice what I preach. I think this could be done, so rather than simply wish someone like him should do it, I'll be figuring out for myself. Resolution and signal to noise ratios are not a problem, especially if I use the equivalent to a pair of $2,000 test microphones from Earthworks at the front end with 24/96Khz. recording. I have heard some very accurate sound from an H6 demo on YouTube. The key to running a normalized test is control and repeat-ability with all stated technical conditions. This much like a studio test setup for camera performance at Digital Photography Review (DPReview).

Setting up a pair of mics at ear level and about the width of a skull...

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10 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I find Mr. Gutenberg, who has reviewed Klipsch speakers favorably, to be unwatchable. He just looks at the camera a babbles on for 30 minutes without EVER turning on the sound of the speaker for us to hear for any length of time. Amazon give sample reads of their books, so, at the very least, we should hear what each speaker sounds like in his particular room from a particular sweet spot with a good Stereo Recorder, like a Zoom, at the sweet spot. Same place each time so we would get a better idea, especially while listening to headphones. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

Absolutely nothing against the guy, just the videos. He is an advocate of high end audio, he is a like-minded compatriot.

 

IF he just showed video of the products he was talking about while he talked instead of having us look at his mug the whole time, and it really is the WHOLE time. Show stills of the internals, how it looks set up, show us the two products you're comparing, show diagrams, spec sheets, ETC... This would make the videos at least watchable (I can watch him for about 17 seconds before I go batty). If he actually set up listening sessions with high def mics, and video of the product while the music played, I would subscribe and watch every video he made. I know it would significantly increase the amount of time he spends making the videos, but he is no longer just an audiophile with an opinion, he is a video producer.

 

And note, it's not just him, a great many You Tube hosts think their faces are more important than what they are talking about.

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If you don't show your mug while talking then you have to insert closed captioning, otherwise you'll lose your hearing-impaired audience!

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17 hours ago, WMcD said:

I believe that putting the sound though a microphone and putting it on the Internet, and then playing back can not possibly reveal the merits of a speaker.

 

OTOH, I'm an ex-New Yorker and Gutenberg's personality is familiar.

 

Yes, Best of New Years everyone.

 

WMcD

There's not question that a mere RECORDING of speaker playback in a particular room will never be the same as a live experience. No argument there. But relative to ONLY spoken words about the speakers, it's 1,000 times better, even for a brief interlude.

 

But, don't you think having a recording of speakers, with flat input, from the same LEGAL test songs, over and over again, in the same exact sweet spot, in a treated room would work well, at least as compare to NONE???

 

My point is not to create a "be all/end all" of speaker reviews, but just something IMPROVED over just words.

 

BTW, I never attacked the integrity of Mr. Gutenberg, I only commented on what I consider an IMPORTANT missing component to a good Video Review. Nothing more.

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20 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I find Mr. Gutenberg, who has reviewed Klipsch speakers favorably, to be unwatchable. He just looks at the camera a babbles on for 30 minutes without EVER turning on the sound of the speaker for us to hear for any length of time. Amazon give sample reads of their books, so, at the very least, we should hear what each speaker sounds like in his particular room from a particular sweet spot with a good Stereo Recorder, like a Zoom, at the sweet spot. Same place each time so we would get a better idea, especially while listening to headphones. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

same feeling or impression -   0 technical facts or comparatives -very long , and boring for people who are seeking real technical  information  -and the main reason to dial into the review falls  very short , in the end  -

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1 hour ago, Randyh said:

same feeling or impression -   0 technical facts or comparatives -very long , and boring for people who are seeking real technical  information  -and the main reason to dial into the review falls  very short , in the end  -

Ask a man from Vermont: "How's your wife?" to which, he will inevitably reply: "Compared to what?"

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One of the subjects that I thought about broaching in the new year is "loudspeaker requirements", including precedence of requirements (i.e.," what's the most important requirement, then the next most important requirement", etc.).  Sadly, I'm not sure that many would benefit from that discussion since few actually take the time to learn what those requirements actually mean to the subjective listening quality, except perhaps bass extension (but not bass response flatness), and overall frequency response flatness (absolute deviation...but not the standard deviation of SPL response irregularities).  It takes a little time, a DSP crossover, and something like REW to measure what you're hearing in order to calibrate your ears to each of those requirements, unfortunately.

 

Having said that, the easiest way that I'd have to pick out likely candidate loudspeakers for audition (assuming it's possible, which it wasn't when I bought the Jubs 12 years ago sight unseen, hearing unheard) would be to have the following performance capabilities measured and reported effectively (i.e., not disguised by zooming the vertical or horizontal scales out too far so that you can't read the actually variations in performance vs. frequency, etc.), not necessarily in precedence order--but roughly arranged by groups of importance:
 

  • A spectrogram of the impulse response of the loudspeaker taken under anechoic conditions, or in-room at 1m microphone distance, resolution at 500 microsecond minor divisions, from 20 to 20,000 Hz. An example:

    TAD TD-4002 Jubilee Impulse Spectrogram (Fractional Order Crossover Filters).jpg
     
  • Polar Sonogram plot (K-402-MEH example):

    K-402-MEH horizonal normalized sonogram.jpg
     
  • Step response, shown in 0.2 to 0.5 ms minor division steps horizontally, % peak response vertically (K-402-MEH example):
     
  • Typical Step Response.jpg
     
  • Phase vs. frequency, showing minor divisions of 45 degrees or less. An example:

    BMS 4592ND Raw Repsonse (HF & MF diaphragms) Phase.jpg
  • Group delay showing minor divisions of 0.5-1 millisecond. An example:

    BMS 4592ND (HF and MF diaphragms) Group Delay.jpg

     
  • Modulation distortion sidebands at 105 dB output for several dual-tone measurements centered at the extremes of the woofer and midrange pass bands. An example plot--but this particular example below is at too low a level to discern modulation sideband levels.  [This plot can be estimated by looking at the loudspeaker itself and seeing the configuration, i.e., direct radiating drivers vs. horn loaded, whether or not any compression driver has ferrofluid in the voice coils to damp a heavy diaphragm or too compliant diaphragm suspension, etc.]:

    1257587303_RightJubDualToneDistortion.thumb.jpg.b2096b273aa46a1c77837f904a56dcc5.jpg
     
  • SPL vs. frequency, showing low and high frequency extension and smoothness at the 2 dB/division resolution level.  The reason why this plot is last on the list is because many of the visible irregularities seen here can easily be corrected via use of DSP crossover:

    Right Jubilee and dual SPUDs--1 m from Jubilee.jpg
     
  • Input impedance magnitude and phase vs. frequency (Danley SH-60 woofer impedance example):

    1022380832_DanleySH-50WooferImpedanceScreenShot.JPG.3619769ef0ba50734c1f5e8af4643fb2.JPG

 

That's 7-8 plots that show a great deal about the performance of a loudspeaker, from which prospective buyers could to chose their candidates for auditioning. 

 

In reality, you will likely only see measurements of SPL response (without phase shown) only, and at 10 or 20 dB minor division resolution, not 2 dB resolution.  In typical audio reviews seen in magazines and online, you don't get even get that one measurement, but instead a lot of words, and perhaps a completely useless YouTube video of the loudspeakers playing in stereo mode in room by a smartphone with someone walking around, almost aimlessly.

 

Even wonder why selecting good loudspeakers for auditioning is mainly a hit-or-miss proposition...even just word-of-mouth?  The reviews done by "audio reviewers" are usually next to worthless, but nevertheless are used by most people that don't know how to use any of the above identified plots to make much better informed decisions.

 

Chris

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22 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I find Mr. Gutenberg, who has reviewed Klipsch speakers favorably, to be unwatchable. He just looks at the camera a babbles on for 30 minutes without EVER turning on the sound of the speaker for us to hear for any length of time. Amazon give sample reads of their books, so, at the very least, we should hear what each speaker sounds like in his particular room from a particular sweet spot with a good Stereo Recorder, like a Zoom, at the sweet spot. Same place each time so we would get a better idea, especially while listening to headphones. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

I like to do my critical listening of speaker reviews with my iPhone ear buds so I can get complete and total like I was really there fidelity.🤣 Happy New Years Claude and everyone else.

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1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Ask a man from Vermont: "How's your wife?" to which, he will inevitably reply: "Compared to what?"

well , Yeah Claude ---------compared to how good she cooks --------- the first criteria in Vermont  is to have  a great cook   ------the second is to listen to music while eating the great food , it brings out new nuances , flavors and the aromas  , and the last one on the list is to listen to Mr. Gutenberg 's reviews as you dont want to spoil your dinner -

happy new year --------bonne et heureuse annee -

 

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57 minutes ago, Chris A said:

That's six-to-seven plots that would show a great deal about the performance of loudspeakers from which to winnow down candidate models for auditioning. 

 

In reality, you will likely only see measurements of the last type of plot only, and at 10 or 20 dB minor division resolution, not 2 dB resolution.  In typical audio reviews seen in magazines and online, you don't get even that one measurement, but only a lot of words, and perhaps a completely useless YouTube video of the loudspeakers playing in stereo mode in--room by a smartphone with someone walking around--almost aimlessly.

 

Even wonder why selecting good loudspeakers for auditioning is mainly a hit-or-miss proposition...even just word-of-mouth?  The reviews done by "audio reviewers" are usually next to worthless, but nevertheless are used by most people that don't know how to use any of the above identified plots to make much better informed decisions.

 

Chris

I agree with you on this additional information. More fodder to contrast against the "blah blah blah" I spoke of at the onset of this thread.

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6 minutes ago, Dave A said:

I like to do my critical listening of speaker reviews with my iPhone ear buds so I can get complete and total like I was really there fidelity.🤣 Happy New Years Claude and everyone else.

LOL. You can always count on a $marta$$ Tweeter Lens Cutter to provide comic relief!

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4 minutes ago, Randyh said:

well , Yeah Claude ---------compared to how good she cooks --------- the first criteria in Vermont  is to have  a great cook   ------the second is to listen to music while eating the great food , it brings out new nuances , flavors and the aromas  , and the last one on the list is to listen to Mr. Gutenberg 's reviews as you dont want to spoil your dinner -

happy new year --------bonne et heureuse annee -

 

Merci, Monsieur!

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