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Bubo

WHOLE HOUSE GENERATOR WIND OR SOLAR ??

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20 hours ago, dtel said:

If enough property wind or solar would also give you the benefit of protein if things got tough, just need a book on cooking wild birds, or cooking them the rest of the way.

 

I know, it's not the same but was surprised when I read it, I still think dead dinosaurs are the way to go.

 

 

 

Although wind turbines do kill birds, relatively speaking the numbers are low compared to other sources.

 

In areas with high bird migration there are a handful of radar based control systems that can stop the wind turbines when birds approach.

 

https://detect-inc.com/wind-energy-bird-bat-radars/

 

 

image.png.c9ea2873ed06dbc5c9d8183d0be79147.png

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On 2/16/2021 at 10:36 AM, Bubo said:

To get the thread rolling

I have a 3500 Watt Sears portable generator in the shed

that I have used twice in 20 years....

 

Check the payout time?  typical is approx. +30 yrs.   PV modules start to croak at around 20 to 25 yrs. I don't know too much about Wind Energy, other than generators' don't tolerate freezing temps , and they can be noisy depending on design wind speed. Personally, I think they destroy the landscape. Foundations can be expensive, the preference is for moment footings which can get really big and take up a lot of land. The alternative is interconnected drilled piers, but cost goes up. 

 

I have a client that sells quite a few solar trackers up north, both single axis and dual axis. I had to get licensed in some northern states and even Ontario, Canada. There are features like "Snow Dump Mode" and there are also special PV modules that produce energy from the light reflection off the snow (or water). So yes, Northern regions and heavy snow regions are not a big concern.

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44 minutes ago, Zack R said:

 

Although wind turbines do kill birds, relatively speaking the numbers are low compared to other sources.

 

In areas with high bird migration there are a handful of radar based control systems that can stop the wind turbines when birds approach.

 

https://detect-inc.com/wind-energy-bird-bat-radars/

 

 

image.png.c9ea2873ed06dbc5c9d8183d0be79147.png

Biggest issues with wind turbines is that they're unreliable.   You're at the mercy of the wind.  No wind, no electricity.   Texas has huge wind farms and we found out this week that they're subject to freezing also.  No turn no juice.

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Our local utility, which also provides gigabit fiber to your house, has a solar farm. In the middle of town. You can buy/rent, the utility does all the support and maintenance.

 

https://epb.com/solarshare

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14 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

Biggest issues with wind turbines is that they're unreliable.   You're at the mercy of the wind.  No wind, no electricity.   Texas has huge wind farms and we found out this week that they're subject to freezing also.  No turn no juice.

 

Parts of Iilinois and Indiana have wind turbines, too. I wonder how they are doing?

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13 minutes ago, Marvel said:

Our local utility, which also provides gigabit fiber to your house, has a solar farm. In the middle of town. You can buy/rent, the utility does all the support and maintenance.

 

https://epb.com/solarshare

Solar is great when its not cloudy.  There's also a tremendous amount of chemical pollution created when building the panels.  It wouldn't surprise me if the net effect on the environment was a negative.  There's panel disposal to consider after they've reached the end of their service life also.  That's not even considering waste from the batteries they use.

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25 minutes ago, Marvel said:

 

Parts of Iilinois and Indiana have wind turbines, too. I wonder how they are doing?

 

I"ll see if I can find out

Can't think of a reason to drive out there right now 45 miles west and south

Plenty of times they are not turning when I drive by

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WND says wind in Upper Midwest went to negative generation, they had to heat the units while it was too cold to use them.

 

Quote

 

Wind turbine shutdowns during polar vortex stoke Midwest debate

Written By  Jeffrey Tomich / EnergywireFebruary 27, 2019
As residents of the Twin Cities awoke on Jan. 29, the first of three straight days of subzero temperatures, about half of the region’s electricity was coming from wind farms dotting the Upper Midwest.

Wind energy across the Midcontinent Independent System Operator’s northern region, stretching from Minnesota to Iowa, peaked that morning between 9 and 10 a.m. at 11,445 megawatts. Wind farms were churning out about half of the area’s total electric output, according to the grid operator’s hourly data.

At the time, it was minus 8 degrees Fahrenheit at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. Blustering winds made it feel like minus 19 F.

But grid operators would watch as electricity from wind steadily tailed off during the next day and a half.

By the evening of Jan. 30, there was less than 550 MW on the MISO North grid, supplying just 2.5 percent of the region’s power. The temperature, which had bottomed out an hour earlier, had fallen to minus 21 F with a minus 31 F wind chill.

That dip in wind output during last month’s deep freeze is now fueling debate about the nation’s embrace of renewable energy. The polar vortex arrived as calls grew on the left for a “Green New Deal” to transition to renewables and tackle the threat of climate change, all while various state-level proposals to increase renewable energy penetration circulated across the country.

It was also fresh ammunition for a fossil industry and other critics of renewable energy mandates that have long sowed doubts about the ability to maintain reliability on a grid growing increasingly dependent on intermittent energy sources.

But what exactly happened across the Midwestern footprint?


Read more: 7 takeaways on how grid operator PJM weathered the polar vortex


Part of the reason for a drop in wind output was the normal daily variation in generation. In fact, the grid operator expected less wind energy to be available throughout Jan. 30, according to MISO’s day-ahead forecast.

Other turbines across the Upper Midwest shut down due to plunging temperatures.

Output from wind farms — a technology dubbed as the new baseload energy in the Upper Midwest — fell off even faster than anticipated starting the night before as temperatures fell below minus 20 F, the cutoff point below which turbines automatically quit operating.

A MISO presentation released ahead of the committee meeting today shows that when the grid operator declared a “maximum generation event” just before 3 a.m. on Jan. 30, only about half of the almost 14,000-MW forecast of wind generation to be available was actually producing energy.

Brian Draxten, manager of resource planning for Otter Tail Power Co., said wind turbines across North Dakota shut down because of the extreme temperatures. In fact, he said the wind farms went from a power producer to a 2-megawatt load on its system because they required heat to avoid being damaged.

 

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Coal is perfect, zero respiratory problems down wind from plants. Let alone the extraction practices, waste or left over mine complications. Never a worker died in a mine either.

 

Nuclear has no problems with disposal. Problems while infrequent are deviating when they happen.

 

I find it laughable the repeating concern about the birds and wind turbines. Typically from people who care zero about the environment on any other level, whatsoever. Or what future generations will have to deal with. 

 

No solution is perfect. Reducing use would be the best place to start. 

 

Birds and wind turbines are just a thinly-veiled dog whistle for 50% of the U.S. to say they don't like the other 50% of the U.S.

 

By the way Texas, Iowa and Denmark have some of the highest per capita wind turbines in the world and it gets cold there with regular frequency compared to you. Sorry you're cold right now but take a hard look in the mirror at what you did to yourself the last 20 years

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Blade freezing is an issue with icing,

interesting no solutions in the evaluation and engineering phase

The subsidies phase probably drove the engineering and deployment

more than any other consideration

 

Solutions, some better than others, not clear much consideration was given to freezing and ice

which is hard to believe

 

Quote

The cold, hard truth about ice on turbine blades

By Michelle Froese | October 25, 2018

 

Written by Barbara Rook Contributor

 

It can be tough to predict, and even tougher to manage. But wind-farm operators are finding success navigating around Mother Nature in cold climates.

Among many technologies, Caribou Wind Farms has tested spraying anti-icing agents applied from a helicopter.

After experiencing significant wind-farm downtime due to ice buildup on turbine blades, the operators of the 150-turbine Lac Alfred wind farm, near Amqui, Quebec, sought new ideas for retrofitting the blades with an anti-icing technology. They turned to Wicetect OY’s patented Ice Prevention System (WIPS). After testing the system on two turbines, the application was expanded to an additional 10 units the following year.

The WIPS blade-heating elements consist of carbon-based electrical heaters, which let the blade surface heat quickly — but to a controlled temperature — once ice is detected. The thin (0.5 mm) heater, including a glass fabric protection layer, does not interfere with the unit’s aerodynamics.

However, the biggest challenge was retrofitting an efficient de-icing system on existing, four-year-old wind turbines, according to Sebastien Goupil-Dumont, manager – Generation at EDF Renewable Energy Inc. EDF RE acted as project manager.

3.-Among-many-technologies-Caribou-Wind-

 

 

https://www.windpowerengineering.com/the-cold-hard-truth-about-ice-on-turbine-blades/

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Wind not all rainbows and unicorns

coal intentionally crippled with regs

wind subsidized and favored with regs

NG depends on well drilling for oil, so no oil drilling

no NG


 

Quote

 

filed:  February 17, 2021 • Editorials, U.S.

A deep green freeze  

Credit:  By The Editorial Board | The Wall Street Journal | Feb. 15, 2021 | www.wsj.com ~~

Gas and power prices have spiked across the central U.S. while Texas regulators ordered rolling blackouts Monday as an Arctic blast has frozen wind turbines. Herein is the paradox of the left’s climate agenda: The less we use fossil fuels, the more we need them.

A mix of ice and snow swept across the country this weekend as temperatures plunged below zero in the upper Midwest and into the teens in Houston. Cold snaps happen—the U.S. also experienced a Polar Vortex in 2019—as do heat waves. Yet the power grid is becoming less reliable due to growing reliance on wind and solar, which can’t provide power 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

While Texas is normally awash in gas and oil, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which oversees the state’s wholesale power market, urged residents this weekend to conserve power to avoid power outages. Regulators rationed gas for commercial and industrial uses to ensure fuel for power plants and household heating.

Texas’s energy emergency could last all week as the weather is forecast to remain frigid. “My understanding is, the wind turbines are all frozen,” Public Utility Commission Chairman DeAnn Walker said Friday. “We are working already to try and ensure we have enough power but it’s taken a lot of coordination.”

Blame a perfect storm of bad government policies, timing and weather. Coal and nuclear are the most reliable sources of power. But competition from heavily subsidized wind power and inexpensive natural gas, combined with stricter emissions regulation, has caused coal’s share of Texas’s electricity to plunge by more than half in a decade to 18%.

Wind’s share has tripled to about 25% since 2010 and accounted for 42% of power last week before the freeze set in. About half of Texans rely on electric pumps for heating, which liberals want to mandate everywhere. But the pumps use a lot of power in frigid weather. So while wind turbines were freezing, demand for power was surging.

Gas-fired power plants ramped up, but the Arctic freeze increased demand for gas across the country. Producers couldn’t easily increase supply since a third of rigs across the country were taken out of production during the pandemic amid lower energy demand. Some gas wells and pipelines in Texas and Oklahoma also shut down in frosty conditions.

Enormous new demand coupled with constrained supply caused natural gas spot prices to spike to nearly $600 per million British thermal units in the central U.S. from about $3 a couple weeks ago. Future wholesale power prices in Texas for early this week soared to $9,000 per megawatt hour from a seasonal average of $25.

Prices jumped in the Midwest too, though less dramatically because there are more coal and nuclear plants. Illinois and Michigan have more gas storage than Texas, which exports much of its shale gas to other states and, increasingly, around the world in liquefied form.

Europe and Asia are also importing more fossil fuels for heat and power this winter. U.S. LNG exports increased 25% year-over-year in December while prices tripled in northern Asian spot markets and doubled in Europe. Germany’s public broadcasting recently reported that “Germany’s green energies strained by winter.” The report noted that power is “currently coming mainly from coal, and the power plants in Lausitz” are now “running at full capacity.”

Coal still accounts for 60% of China’s energy, and imports tripled in December. China has some 250 gigawatts of coal-fired plants under development, enough to power all of Germany. Unlike Democrats in the U.S., Chinese leaders understand that fossil fuels are needed to support intermittent renewables. “Power shortages and incredibly high spot gas prices this winter are reminding governments, businesses and consumers of the importance of coal,” a Wood Mackenzie consultant told Reuters recently.

California progressives long ago banished coal. But a heat wave last summer strained the state’s power grid as wind flagged and solar ebbed in the evenings. After imposing rolling blackouts, grid regulators resorted to importing coal power from Utah and running diesel emergency generators.

 

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2021/02/17/a-deep-green-freeze/

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59 minutes ago, Marvel said:

 

Parts of Iilinois and Indiana have wind turbines, too. I wonder how they are doing?

 

From my quick read

 

IL and some of the other N States store a lot of NG for the winter

even with net negative electricity from the lifeless wind farms

these areas were still able to generate electricity with NG and any coal plants they still allow

It has been near zero temp F here for a week

can't imagine the death and property damage no electricity would visit on millions up here.

Millions might have had to flee their homes and dive south in 0 Degree temps

but South to where ?

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Less than 16% of Texas's electricity comes from wind. 56% comes from natural gas. do you think all of their problems are coming from 16% of their supply? Demand is the issue here when it gets cold you need more and they can't keep up with production let alone even produce it when all their equipment is Frozen. It's not always cold in Texas but they know it does happen from time to time.

 

The problem is what Texas has done to itself by failing to prepare the last 10 to 20 years. But those people don't want to point the finger at themselves and saying Frozen wind turbines fits their narrative.

 

How do you think Denmark and Greenland survive on wind power? They winterize it they understand it gets cold. Texas is having problems with freezing instrumentation at nuclear and natural gas facilities.

 

I'm not defending wind and I could care less what happens in Texas. I'm just trying to shed some light on the hypocrisy of how people spin the narrative when they're trying to cover their own tracks. This exact same thing happened 10 years ago February 1st through 5th 2011 in TX. They did nothing to remediate the problem. They also are the only state in the country to have their own electrical grid. They think they can do it better themselves, more power to them. Best if luck, I wish them well.

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I browsed quickly past all the generator talk and didn't see any mention of the recent trend in some type of solar power arrangement (contract, I suppose) which burdens homeowners at the time they want to sell their homes.  About a month ago, a prospective client called me, complaining that the solar panel sales rep. said they could transfer the panels to another home should they decide to move.  Now that they are moving, guess what?

 

Literally a few hours ago, I helped a real estate broker client of mine draft a special provision in his client's earnest money contract regarding the necessity of the Buyer to qualify to assume the Seller's solar panel contract and providing Seller the right to terminate the contract if Buyer does not show proof of qualification within 10 days.  

 

I know nothing about solar panel arrangements and whether they are cost-effective or not.  No opinion on that.  Just be aware they are creating legal issues for some people.

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45 minutes ago, rplace said:

How do you think Denmark and Greenland survive on wind power?

 

Apparently Denmark keeps the lights on with coal

though they have diversified away from it according to Worldometer


 

Quote

 

Denmark Coal

Summary Table

 TonsGlobal Rank

Coal Reserves 0 N.A.

Coal Production 0N.A.

Coal Consumption 3,985,953 51st in the world

Yearly Deficit -3,985,953 

Coal Imports 3,181,267 

Coal Exports 23,149 

Net Imports  3,158,118 

 

(Data shown is for 2016, the latest year with complete data in all categories)

Coal Consumption in Denmark

See also: List of countries by Coal Consumption

Denmark consumes 3,985,953 Tons (short tons, "st") of Coal per year as of the year 2016.

Denmark ranks 51st in the world for Coal consumption, accounting for about 0.3% of the world's total consumption of 1,139,471,430 tons.

Denmark consumes 697,900 cubic feet of Coal per capita every year (based on the 2016 population of 5,711,349 people), or 1,912 cubic feet per capita per day.

Coal Imports

Denmark imports 79% of its Coal consumption (3,158,118 tons in 2016).

History of Coal Consumption and Production

 

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coal/denmark-coal/

 

According to this travel web site

the Average Temperature in Denmark is 36F in January

Must be the warm water from the Gulf Stream that hits Denmark

then circulates in the Baltic

Also accounts for all those cloudy days all summer, spring, fall and winter when I was there

 

Quote

 

Climate in Denmark in january

Climate in Copenhagen in january

In january, maximum temperature is 38°F and minimum temperature is 34°F (for an average temperature of 36°F). The climate is quite more than very fresh around this city in january. Plan to cover you well! With 1in over 7 days, rainfall can happen during your journey. But this is pretty reasonably and you will not be too bothered by it.

https://www.whereandwhen.net/when/europe/denmark/january/

 

 

Breakdown of Generation by source in Denmark

Renewables are approx 46%

with a focus of comparison to other countries, not sure how they chose them.

http://mecometer.com/whats/denmark/electricity-production-by-source/

 

 

Denmark's top imports and exports

Pig meat is up there, all those canned hams had to come from somewhere

Was disappointed not to see canned sugar cookies, I do my best to keep the sales up.

https://commodity.com/data/denmark/

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@Bubo what is your point here? You copy and paste lots of stuff from the internet. You offer very little in your own thoughts. I can find you something on the Internet that says the world is round without a doubt. And I can find you something on the Internet that says the world is flat without a doubt. like I said I'm not defending wind and I could care less what happens in Texas. Better them than me.

 

@Jeff Matthews have you ever heard of stupid people buying a car they couldn't afford and being trapped in two terms they couldn't manage? Like anything else buyer beware. If somebody tells you I'll put solar panels on your house for free and all you have to do is buy the electricity from us. Do you think that is going to benefit the homeowner in the long run? Have you ever refinance your house and given it some real consideration? It costs me x to do this I'm going to live here for y. Are the total costs more than what I'm saving? Given the answer and your certainty do one or the other. If you own the system just like you own the siding the driveway or the landscaping it's yours to sell at what price the market will bear. if you don't own the panels and are locked into a shity contract I don't feel sorry for you in the least. You're an idiot like about 75% of the general population. It's not the first time in history salesmen have screwed people. Refresh my memory what is it that's born every minute? Last I checked businesses are not charities. do your homework buy what you can afford and know what you're doing.

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The problem is quite clearly a failure to winterize power generating facilities to the degree necessary for extreme cold snaps, which do occur with enough regularity to merit it.  The problem is not the source of energy.  Natural gas facilities have been hit hard.  The for profit aspect of most providers is part of the problem, as a simple matter of accountability.  Our town has a municipal electric, accountable to the citizens.  The record here is far above what others around us suffer.  We are helping the rest of the state per the ERCOT regulations of the grid.  ERCOT is great at mandating this, while totally failing to procure the authority to mandate winterization of power plants.  As an aside, the average temperatures for January and February in north central Texas are far above Denmarks.  Averages do not always tell the whole story.  Furthermore, our town gets way more power from wind than the average in the state, but has enough mix of sources to provide what is necessary.  It is all about planning, preparation, implementation, and accountability.

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20 hours ago, Jeff Matthews said:

I browsed quickly past all the generator talk and didn't see any mention of the recent trend in some type of solar power arrangement (contract, I suppose) which burdens homeowners at the time they want to sell their homes.  About a month ago, a prospective client called me, complaining that the solar panel sales rep. said they could transfer the panels to another home should they decide to move.  Now that they are moving, guess what?

 

Literally a few hours ago, I helped a real estate broker client of mine draft a special provision in his client's earnest money contract regarding the necessity of the Buyer to qualify to assume the Seller's solar panel contract and providing Seller the right to terminate the contract if Buyer does not show proof of qualification within 10 days.  

 

I know nothing about solar panel arrangements and whether they are cost-effective or not.  No opinion on that.  Just be aware they are creating legal issues for some people.

 

Our public utility, as I mentioned, has some solar grids they maintain, but you buy into them. If they generate a lot, you get a lower bill. They aren't on your own property.

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