BS Button List of worthy Myths

[Travis In Austin]

8 hours ago, Khornukopia said:

Myth or fact?   Some people just like to argue.

That's a fact.

 

But it's deeper than that. 

 

Some people have an agenda or they are selling something. 

 

We have had people here that thought wire color and length inside an amp was critically important, and he would repeat the same thing over, and over, and over, and over, and over, because everyone here literally needed saving. If only people would build an amp the way he said, we would truly have high fidelity. Until then, we were all in a fog. 

 

Some people are just absolutely convinced there is a conspiracy going on. 

 

And yes, some like to argue - the "Will it Fly" thread is a great one. 

[Travis In Austin]

New Myth (I don't know which is the truth, and which is the myth/BS. 

 

• Plywood is superior to all other enclosure materials, especially MDF
• MDF is superior to all other speaker enclosure materials, especially plywood
• Plywood from a particular area of Russia sounds better than all other plywood and MDF
• The more you spend on speaker enclosure material the better it will sound
• Regardless of the material used for the enclosure, a resonator will improve the sound
• Any speaker will sound better if placed in a corner

[Travis In Austin]

10 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

Does anybody remember the slightly slow kid in grade school that tried really hard to fit in, but never did?

No. What you are thinking of is Animal House, 

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

3 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

"I break in woofers overnight, using a sine wave somewhat lower than Fs just sufficient to bring the excursion close to xmax. This has never failed to bring Fs down to spec. If Fs is good the rest will be as well. The break in of midrange and high frequency elements has never proven to take as long or to deliver as much of a change, so those I don't bother with.

So what would this equate to for the consumer who pulls his speakers out of the box with drivers straight from China, Malvasia, Philippines, etc.? How much music, and at what level, to equal 8 to 10 hours of "close to xmax at ____ lower than Fs. If you run a CW 3 or 4 loud enough to get the woofer moving at 80% of xmax, what kind of SPL would we be talking about? 

[Racer X]

But who will moderate the Moderator ?

[Travis In Austin]

4 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

IME both those who deny that break-in occurs and those who claim that it takes extended time periods to do so have never actually measured either the changes in the specs or the changes in response. I'm especially wary of manufacturers who claim silly lengths of break-in time, like 400 hours. All that accomplishes is to push the break-in window past the satisfaction guarantee return window."

Doesn't the vast majority of the DIY speaker community believe that drivers require breakin?

 

[Travis In Austin]

5 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

To be clear. I never claimed that break in didn't occur or didn't matter. I only called it's exaggeration thereof as being a Myth, or close to one.

What did you claim? It was so long ago I can't remember. I guess I could go back 17 pages and look. . .

 

"Speaker break in time is just psychosomatic justification that budgets a time frame to allow the new owner time to get their ears/hearing used to them. Any data to support the claims that speakers need 10-20-50 hours of “break in” is deserving of PWK’s Yellow Bullshit button!."

 

Well you for sure didn't day they will sound how they will sound right out of the box. However, the first sentence says, without limitation that break-in time is psychosomatic justification. The next sentence, doesn't seem to make sense after careful reading. "Any data to support" claims that speakers need [more than 10 hours] of break in should get a BS button. Is it the data to support the claims that get a BS button. Or claims of break in of more than 10-20-50 hours of break in is required that  deserve to get a BS button?

 

Seems as though data wouldn't be worth of a BS button (assuming it is reliable, accurate, repeatable - you know, that scientific method stuff). So what you said, I think, is that claims that more than 10 hours of break in is required gets a BS button. 

 

I think it's a higher number, like "hundreds" that gets you an automatic BS button. My personal number is well below 100 hours should get a BS button, what I'm saying is an automatic BS button presumes there is a universally accepted number (excluding the typical outliers). The jury is still out on something as low as 10 hours. If there is some way to equate what these 20 minute burn in approachs, or an overnight approach from a speaker plan seller, equate to for the consumer at home listening to music at maybe 80 to 85 dB in terms of burn-in. 

 

"Claims that speakers require hundreds of hours to "break in" are clearly worthy of a BS Button." If that's the premise, I think everyone agrees with that. 

 

I'm not sure you can pin it down (see what I did there?) below that. I think it's pretty clear from this discussion, that the number is less than 100 that would still deserve an automatic BS button, how much, time will tell.

[henry4841]

And this break in argument goes on and on. Who really cares who's right. If you listen to your speakers long enough they will break in if that is what they need to do. I have my opinion on break in but do not want to join this party. I think this horse has been beaten enough with no clear verdict.  Let's find something else to argue about. 

[Edgar]

8 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

@Edgar you have also observed "measurable changes" in new drivers over time (albeit, the changes were less significant, or not significant for your purposes - if I recall that correctly). How did you run those drivers in? Music, single tone, pink noise?

 

My testing, if you can call it that, was very informal. I had a pair of NOS Electro-Voice EVM-10M (similar, if not identical, to Klipsch K-41) that had never been installed. I removed them from their cartons and measured the Thiele/Small parameters. Then I hooked them in parallel with the woofers on my main system, put them in another room so that they wouldn't interfere with the SQ of my listening room, and ignored them for a week. They were run without enclosures, and received whatever signals the woofers of my main system received. This was a biamplified system, crossed-over at 180 Hz and equalized flat to 27 Hz, so there was a fair amount of boost below 40 Hz.

 

After a week of normal listening to everything from Pink Floyd to television programs, I measured the T/S parameters again. I don't recall the exact numbers, but there were changes and they were very small, on the order of a couple of percent.

 

Make of that whatever you please.

[ODS123]

measurements schmeasurements....  

 

The measurement that matters most is the consistency with which people can hear a difference.  Of course there are measurable differences b/w speaker cables, amplifiers, DACs, CD players, etc...  But do the measured differences rise to the level that they can be heard??

 

McIntosh regularly refreshes their line of amplifiers with new models that boast lower THD, increased dynamic headroom (often in amps that already put out 300w/ch - so, kinda redic), etc..  But these differences aren't audible

[Edgar]

5 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

The measurement that matters most is the consistency with which people can hear a difference.  Of course there are measurable differences b/w speaker cables, amplifiers, DACs, CD players, etc...  But do the measured differences rise to the level that they can be heard??

 

True, but arguing about what other people cannot hear is futile, or hubris. I am willing to comment only on what I can or cannot hear myself. I am sometimes amazed by what others can verifiably hear ... and I have, on rare occasions, been able to similarly amaze others with what I could verifiably hear. Often it boils down to knowing what to listen for.

[001]

9 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

Doesn't the vast majority of the DIY speaker community believe that drivers require breakin?

 

 

"Q:  How about break in time for drivers or new driver diaphragms?

A:  Yes, and depends on the size of the driver.  Tweeter diaphragm probably break-in at a matter of seconds.  They are very low mass and move very little, so any break in would happen almost instantly.  Probably happened when the factory tested the diaphragm after manufacture.

Midrange are a bit bigger and have a bit more mass.  Break-in is probably on the order of minutes with these.

Woofers would take the longest.  I think that break-in on a 12 to 15 inch woofer would be less than an hour played at pretty good volume using music with a lot of low frequency content."

 

-Bob Crites   

[ClaudeJ1]

12 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

Very true that. But they require 500 hours of break in, so there is that. 

According to what? Ridiculous amount of time requirement? From whom? This kind of blanket statement without more specific details is what I'm most leery of, and often times, most deserving of a BS button until proven otherwise.

[Curious_George]

2 hours ago, ODS123 said:

McIntosh regularly refreshes their line of amplifiers with new models that boast lower THD, increased dynamic headroom (often in amps that already put out 300w/ch - so, kinda redic), etc..  But these differences aren't audible

Most brands do (newest features and lower/higher spec numbers) this if they want to stay in business for any length of time, refresh their line of products, it is called "marketing". 

[ClaudeJ1]

7 hours ago, henry4841 said:

And this break in argument goes on and on. Who really cares who's right. If you listen to your speakers long enough they will break in if that is what they need to do. I have my opinion on break in but do not want to join this party. I think this horse has been beaten enough with no clear verdict.  Let's find something else to argue about. 

OK, then. I expect you will practice what you preach and start a new thread about "something else." Looking forward to it.

[ClaudeJ1]

50 minutes ago, geezin' said:

Man...

 

 

You have made ZERO positive contributions to this thread. How about you go start your own thread on any AUDIO subject worthy of discussion,  and quit acting like a Troll. that would be refreshing, to say the least, but I'm not counting on it.

[ODS123]

8 hours ago, henry4841 said:

And this break in argument goes on and on. Who really cares who's right.

 

Umm... Maybe people who visit audio web forum and are interested in sorting out what is real and what's imagined?

[geezin']

5 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

 

.......

[OO1]

5 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

You are like a Jehovahs Witness trying to make sure everyone has heard “the good word”.

FYI ...some Forum Members are JW .

[Chief bonehead]

 Clean up the personal stuff or I will. and no political crap either.