Why should I have a separate 2 channel amp?

[Zen Traveler]

On 9/19/2022 at 1:12 PM, gigantic said:

I currently have a Denon AVR that sounds great and does everything I need it to, but I've been seeinga lot of mention about having a dedicated two channel receiver. What's the benefit? also, is there an advantage to vintage 70's gear, which is all the rage these days, vs amps and receivers from the 80's and even now? 

Fwiw, some people use tube amps because they like the way it colors the sound. Otoh, if you are talking about SS amplification then it shouldn't make any difference (AVR or separate amp) if it drives your speakers efficiently at the SPL you want...Imo, the real question is how much power does it take to drive your speakers (with appropriate headroom) because anything above your need is wasting money. 

On 9/19/2022 at 1:54 PM, Emile said:

Haha; some of us just want to "show off." But, seriously, dedicated 2-channel receivers usually are just "better" than AVR's - especially AVR's pushing 7 channels.

Not if he's only going to be using it for 2 channel.

On 9/19/2022 at 3:02 PM, Islander said:

 If your receiver can put out 100 watts into 2 channels, that's a total of 200 watts.  Therefore, if you happened to hook up 7 speakers, and if you had any program material that was equally loud on all channels, you'd be getting around 28.6 watts per channel.

Sure, but he is asking about driving 2 speakers in stereo. Fwiw, I had a Denon AVR-4806 that was rated by the manufacturer @ 140 WPC, but benchmarked at 114 WPC into 7 channels and 182 WPC into 2! 🤓 https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/denon-avr-4806-receiver-12-2005-part-5.html

[Shakeydeal]

OP, see above post for example of amp=amp thinking. I know, I know, it’s comical, but I say let ‘em have their fun…..

[Zen Traveler]

5 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

OP, see above post for example of amp=amp thinking. I know, I know, it’s comical, but I say let ‘em have their fun…..

Why do you see it as comical? It was a sincere effort of comparing apples to apples when it comes to power. 

[Joecoulson]

Maybe because you say that if SS is to be used, that it doesn’t matter to have an AVR type amplifier vs the separates. That is comical.  

[Shakeydeal]

1 minute ago, Joecoulson said:

Maybe because you say that if SS is to be used, that it doesn’t matter to have an AVR type amplifier vs the separates. That is comical.  

 

Touche'

[Zen Traveler]

7 minutes ago, Joecoulson said:

Maybe because you say that if SS is to be used, that it doesn’t matter to have an AVR type amplifier vs the separates. That is comical.  

It really shouldn't if it's delivering sufficient current to drive your speakers at the SPL you want without distortion. Where the difference lies is the processor that's connected to it. 

[Shakeydeal]

I don't use a "processor". But it doesn't matter. Whatever preamp you put in front of any two amps will "color" them equally. As long as the preamp stays the same, the difference you hear is in the amplifier.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

13 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

 Fwiw, I had a Denon AVR-4806 that was rated by the manufacturer @ 140 WPC, but benchmarked at 114 WPC into 7 channels and 182 WPC into 2! 🤓 https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/denon-avr-4806-receiver-12-2005-part-5.html

 

That is impressive.

 

Did they test the AVR 5800 or 5803? 

[Joecoulson]

3 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

It really shouldn't if it's delivering sufficient current to drive your speakers at the SPL you want without distortion. Where the difference lies is the processor that's connected to it. 

Wrong

Noise, amperes, circuit boards, SNR, THD etc all come into play as a deterioration to the source automatically with "most" AVR's

Separates are typically made in such a way to eliminate as much of that noise as possible, yes even SS.

[Zen Traveler]

1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said:

I don't use a "processor". But it doesn't matter. Whatever preamp you put in front of any two amps will "color" them equally. As long as the preamp stays the same, the difference you hear is in the amplifier.

Oops. I misspoke and meant preamp or processor. 

9 minutes ago, Joecoulson said:

Wrong

Noise, amperes, circuit boards, SNR, THD etc all come into play as a deterioration to the source automatically with "most" AVR's

Separates are typically made in such a way to eliminate as much of that noise as possible, yes even SS.

I disagree and feel where we may agree is that it's more likely one would find cheaper AVRs not delivering the WPC they claim and have a higher noise floor. Fwiw, the Denon I mentioned above wouldn't benefit with a separate amp unless possibly in a really large room and/or at extremely loud volume. Mine had (nor the current AVR-4311CI we have ) has any problem reaching THX Reference level or sustain 80 dB average 100+ dB peak performance. YMMV.

[Shakeydeal]

I'm sorry, but I am dismissing receivers out of hand. They are fine for car crashes and dinosaur stomps, but have no place in a high fidelity system. Before anyone gets too worked up, the usual disclaimers apply; YMMV, IMHO, etc., etc.........

[Zen Traveler]

1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said:

I'm sorry, but I am dismissing receivers out of hand. They are fine for car crashes and dinosaur stomps, but have no place in a high fidelity system. Before anyone gets too worked up, the usual disclaimers apply; YMMV, IMHO, etc., etc.........

No problem and I accept your disclaimers. Fwiw, I listen to primarily multichannel music and my upper-end Denon AVRs have worked great in that application. 

[Islander]

If it were true that all solid state amplifiers sound the same, the perfect amplifier would have been built decades ago, but somehow they keep improving, sounding better, but with varying flavours of "better".  And yes, the more expensive amplifiers tend to sound better.  They're built with better quality, more carefully selected parts, and often have superior circuit designs.

[Knows_Very_Little]

Just now, Islander said:

If it were true that all solid state amplifiers sound the same, the perfect amplifier would have been built decades ago, but somehow they keep improving, sound better, but with varying flavours of "better".  And yes, the more expensive amplifiers tend to sound better.  

 

100%. Though there are still very good sounding affordable amps as well.  Perfect example: I prefer the sound of my Naim amp over my much more expensive Pass Labs.

[Shakeydeal]

Price isn’t always the arbiter of the best sound, but a good percentage of the time it is. But as in your case, it’s mostly about what one prefers over what is “best”.

[Knows_Very_Little]

3 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

Price isn’t always the arbiter of the best sound, but a good percentage of the time it is. But as in your case, it’s mostly about what one prefers over what is “best”.

 

 

Totally agree.

[OO1]

4 hours ago, Islander said:

 the more expensive amplifiers tend to sound better

yes and no  ,  the more you pay for an amp  , the better it sounds  if your gear is of equal quality , but it's a tell all  ,   too ,since  gear  that no longer matches the amp' s performance will actually sound  worse 

[Islander]

4 hours ago, OO1 said:

yes and no  ,  the more you pay for an amp  , the better it sounds  if your gear is of equal quality , but it's a tell all  ,   too ,since  gear  that no longer matches the amp' s performance will actually sound  worse 

 

If your system is continually evolving, as is the case for quite a few of us, the performance levels of the various components may not be equal at times, then you upgrade the weak link, and the quest goes on, until you decide you've spent enough money, run out of space, or found a level of satisfaction that makes it all worthwhile.  Hopefully, the latter instance describes your situation.  It describes mine.

[Islander]

8 hours ago, Knows_Very_Little said:

 

100%. Though there are still very good sounding affordable amps as well.  Perfect example: I prefer the sound of my Naim amp over my much more expensive Pass Labs.

 

That's where my comment about flavours of amplifiers comes in.  Beyond a certain threshold, the sound quality is there, and it becomes a case of personal taste.  The sound of the Naim is more pleasant to you, regardless of measurements or price tags.  This applies to speakers, too, of course.  You might think the very best, most accurate, speakers would all sound the same, but of course they don't.  You pay your money and you take your choice.

[henry4841]

The designs for class A and class A/B amplifiers using discrete output transistors or tubes is has been pretty much standardized. There are designers putting their personal touch on the sound they like best into their designs but not so much anymore. Advances in electronics has improved and is still being perfected in the chip amp amplifiers currently being designed and perfected. Discrete component amplifiers are on their way out, for mass produced products that is, and the chip amp topology is on the rise. Still a demand for the old designs for audiophiles though, with some wrinkles with those designers who like to play. 

 

What can I say, those newer chip amps sound really good. Instead of tube computers we now use a computer designed around a chip, or as some call them a processor.