diamonddelts Posted February 9, 2023 Author Share Posted February 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Quad Khorns said: I would love to hear the Heritage Jubilees ... well maybe I shouldn't as it would just frustrate me. I wonder if there is any chance I could get a set sent to me partially disassembled so I can get them into my audio room ... I know, snowball's chance in hell ... 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 10, 2023 Moderators Share Posted February 10, 2023 6 hours ago, DrWho said: Btw, newly married myself and getting a new house this year. I haven't broached the speaker conversation yet, so I might be reaching out for tips, haha Congratulations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 18 hours ago, DrWho said: Woah.... For all these years I thought you were just way more sensitive to modulation distortion, and the multi-way approach makes a ton of sense in that regard. Are you still listening to the same music / same loudness / etc... ? Or maybe music preferences have shifted? I never thought you'd go 2-way (or I guess technically 3-way if you're running subs). I'd love to hear more about the pros/cons of why you've made the change. My biggest criticism of the new heritage Jubilee is it feels like that compression driver has to work hard to dig so low in frequency. It reminds me a bit of those old lowther designs where they try to use a single driver over the whole audio range. My biggest praise of the new heritage Jubilee is Klipsch finally has a bass horn that sounds great. Not a hint of tubbiness at all, and it doesn't have that "too accurate" sound of lascala / khorn that makes rough recordings sound really shrill. Roy blasted some Tool for us at Axpona last year and the bass was incredible. Overall the Heritage Jubilee is definitely an upgrade. I know I'm nitpicking about the HF performance...I think it's just worth noting that there's some compromise there (as are all things audio / engineering related). The place I notice it the most is in the oompf of a snare drum thwack. It gets crunched up a bit instead of having this thwack that hits you in the neck. You could get that thwack back pursuing some sort of 3-way with the Jubilee, but then that crossover to the highs would destroy your imaging - and there's probably not a way around that (yet). I remember the UG Jubilee having more thwack in the snare, but it comes with some tubbiness in the bass. The Heritage Jubilee is definitely the better compromise, but that snare drum sound is sooo important for a lot of music....maybe less so in the jazz / orchestral realms that a lot of audiophiles listen to. Anyways, this stuff comes to mind because Mark has always been someone in my mind with a super fine detector for modulation distortion. I'd really love to get your thoughts, Mark, on the UG versus Heritage sound if you've had a chance to compare them side by side. Unfortunately I'm going off memory and very different environments when I got to hear them in person. So many trips to Hope and hearing Roy's 2-way Jubs and how well they imaged. When I was running 3 and 4 way systems the sound field was tall but the actual sound stage image wasn't as coherent as with just 2-way. Having TAD 4002 drivers I get better extension in 2-way then using a 510 tweeter with a K691. I finally figured out my room size does not call for a 9 foot tall 4-way MCM (but it is cool to have !!). It sounds better closer to the floor. I am using less amplifiers but of higher qualiity. I still listen to the same music. No changes there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted February 11, 2023 Klipsch Employees Share Posted February 11, 2023 On 2/9/2023 at 1:59 PM, DrWho said: Woah.... For all these years I thought you were just way more sensitive to modulation distortion, and the multi-way approach makes a ton of sense in that regard. Are you still listening to the same music / same loudness / etc... ? Or maybe music preferences have shifted? I never thought you'd go 2-way (or I guess technically 3-way if you're running subs). I'd love to hear more about the pros/cons of why you've made the change. My biggest criticism of the new heritage Jubilee is it feels like that compression driver has to work hard to dig so low in frequency. It reminds me a bit of those old lowther designs where they try to use a single driver over the whole audio range. My biggest praise of the new heritage Jubilee is Klipsch finally has a bass horn that sounds great. Not a hint of tubbiness at all, and it doesn't have that "too accurate" sound of lascala / khorn that makes rough recordings sound really shrill. Roy blasted some Tool for us at Axpona last year and the bass was incredible. Overall the Heritage Jubilee is definitely an upgrade. I know I'm nitpicking about the HF performance...I think it's just worth noting that there's some compromise there (as are all things audio / engineering related). The place I notice it the most is in the oompf of a snare drum thwack. It gets crunched up a bit instead of having this thwack that hits you in the neck. You could get that thwack back pursuing some sort of 3-way with the Jubilee, but then that crossover to the highs would destroy your imaging - and there's probably not a way around that (yet). I remember the UG Jubilee having more thwack in the snare, but it comes with some tubbiness in the bass. The Heritage Jubilee is definitely the better compromise, but that snare drum sound is sooo important for a lot of music....maybe less so in the jazz / orchestral realms that a lot of audiophiles listen to. Anyways, this stuff comes to mind because Mark has always been someone in my mind with a super fine detector for modulation distortion. I'd really love to get your thoughts, Mark, on the UG versus Heritage sound if you've had a chance to compare them side by side. Unfortunately I'm going off memory and very different environments when I got to hear them in person. Doc. Come to the birthday bash and hear them in the lab. Then you will understand why I chose the celestion…..and you should have done what I did. In my proposal, I added…..and I will ALWAYS have large speakers. She said yes….. 2 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted February 11, 2023 Klipsch Employees Share Posted February 11, 2023 On 2/9/2023 at 2:23 PM, Quad Khorns said: I would love to hear the Heritage Jubilees ... well maybe I shouldn't as it would just frustrate me. I wonder if there is any chance I could get a set sent to me partially disassembled so I can get them into my audio room ... I know, snowball's chance in hell ... Come to the birthday bash…..no regrets. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathst Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 I was just wanting clarification on the use of the Celestion Axi 2050's in the horns of the Heritage Jubilees. I see the celestions have a phase plug but i presume there is an additional one in the new Jubilees that would be missing and can't be purchased? Is the upgrade still worth doing for someone with a set of the Heritage Jubilees? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMurg Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 4 hours ago, bathst said: I was just wanting clarification on the use of the Celestion Axi 2050's in the horns of the Heritage Jubilees. I see the celestions have a phase plug but i presume there is an additional one in the new Jubilees that would be missing and can't be purchased? Is the upgrade still worth doing for someone with a set of the Heritage Jubilees? I assume you meant to ask if the Axi2050 upgrade was still worth doing for someone with a set of the Underground Jubilee (as anyone with Heritage Jubilee already have Axi2050 🙂). If so, I would say that it is probably worth doing. While the Axi would still beam at high frequencies without Roy's external phase plug, you would get better high frequency extension on-axis similar to those who switched their UG Jubilee to TAD HF drivers. With the Axi in particular, you could maybe a bit better integration with the bass bin with a low crossover point too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathst Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 Yes that is exactly what i meant to ask thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the real Duke Spinner Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 w0w You people are fussyfedpite my pro sound and studio background ..I rarely futz with my speakers Everyday listening .. Is KLF 30 and JBL 4430 At one time I designed and manufactured Pro Sound speakers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 22, 2023 Moderators Share Posted February 22, 2023 23 hours ago, MMurg said: I assume you meant to ask if the Axi2050 upgrade was still worth doing for someone with a set of the Underground Jubilee (as anyone with Heritage Jubilee already have Axi2050 🙂). If so, I would say that it is probably worth doing. While the Axi would still beam at high frequencies without Roy's external phase plug, you would get better high frequency extension on-axis similar to those who switched their UG Jubilee to TAD HF drivers. With the Axi in particular, you could maybe a bit better integration with the bass bin with a low crossover point too. I think @mark1101 has tried the standard Axi2050s with his UG in a 2 way and can tell you what he found @bathst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamonddelts Posted March 1, 2023 Author Share Posted March 1, 2023 On 2/21/2023 at 7:36 PM, Travis In Austin said: I think @mark1101 has tried the standard Axi2050s with his UG in a 2 way and can tell you what he found @bathst I ordered a pair of Celestion Axi 2050 drivers for my MF horns, but they are still on back order for at least 30 days. I actually would like to keep my speakers as a 3 way, i wonder if there's any driver I can use to replace the K691 on the HF horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted March 1, 2023 Moderators Share Posted March 1, 2023 1 hour ago, diamonddelts said: I ordered a pair of Celestion Axi 2050 divere for my MF horns, but they are still on back order for at least 30 days. I actually would like to keep my speakers as a 3 way, i wonder if there's any driver I can use to replace the K691 on the HF horn. @mark1101 has as much, if not more experience, with 3 way underground Jubilee than most people. He also has had the Axi 2050s, and TAD be. 3-way was his preference for many years before he went back to 2 way if I recall. He would be one of the best to advise on what should go where, what he would used, etc. along with the @the real Duke Spinner. He can also tell you what he used to dial it in. As I recall that was a very lengthy and painstaking process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted March 1, 2023 Moderators Share Posted March 1, 2023 On 1/31/2023 at 8:38 PM, mark1101 said: I have long since changed my UJ setup (and my 4-way MCM) both, to only 2-way + subs. Both systems have TADs on the 402s. I use Roy's settings in a pair of Xilicas. Took me a while to adjust because I was always a 3-way guy up until a couple of years ago. Turns out less ended up being more in my room. Well @diamonddelts I forgot he already covered it. specifically I think he will tell you that you can try the Axi on the 402 and the 691 on the HF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted March 1, 2023 Moderators Share Posted March 1, 2023 I think the main thing is you need figure out a way to listen to Heritage Jubilees to see if that’s the sound you are after. It possibly could be that if all of your music happened to fall within a certain sphere, what ever the first two songs were that we did a comparison with. But as the demo songs kept coming the gap widened immensely. If it isn’t, then you know to go balls out on getting your UG 535 dialed in. If the Heritage Jubilee turns out to be what you are searching for then you will also know that’s a different pathway. You cannot get there with a KHJ bass bin, 402 (and a 510). As Mike alluded to, it is significantly more than a matter of putting Axi’s on a 402. I don’t care what anyone says, you are not going to get the synergy between the top and bottom on the Jubilee with a UGJ and subs. That is from the tinkerers like Mike, Mark JWC who messed around with this stuff for a lot of years, at a very high and complex level, including how to integrate horn loaded subs - number, location, etc. They have all said, unless I misunderstood, you can’t get there from here. As good as the UGJ was/is, it’s a significant jump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 35 minutes ago, diamonddelts said: I actually would like to keep my speakers as a 3 way, i wonder if there's any driver I can use to replace the K691 on the HF horn. what's the point of spending 2k$ for the Axi 2050+ DSP if you' ll limit the driver from reproducing HF with a 3 way , the new driver is simply not needed . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 22 minutes ago, OO1 said: what's the point of spending 2k$ for the Axi 2050+ DSP if you' ll limit the driver from reproducing HF with a 3 way , the new driver is simply not needed . Although you will still need about 20db boost, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMurg Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Marvel said: Although you will still need about 20db boost, correct? Yes, the driver needs EQ for flat response on the K-402, like most any driver on a constant directivity horn. That amount of gain is only required up near 20 kHz. I mentioned the Chris A post earlier in this thread where PEQ settings can be found that would be a good starting point. 6 hours ago, OO1 said: what's the point of spending 2k$ for the Axi 2050+ DSP if you' ll limit the driver from reproducing HF with a 3 way , the new driver is simply not needed . I agree. I don't see the point of going to the Axi2050 and then limiting its use to a midrange driver. It's a better driver than both of the compression drivers on the 3-way UG Jubilee. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 3 hours ago, Marvel said: Although you will still need about 20db boost, correct? pretty close to that , yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 5 hours ago, Marvel said: Although you will still need about 20db boost, correct? 3 hours ago, MMurg said: Yes, the driver needs EQ for flat response on the K-402, like most any driver on a constant directivity horn. That amount of gain is only required up near 20 kHz. I mentioned the Chris A post earlier in this thread where PEQ settings can be found that would be a good starting point. 3 hours ago, OO1 said: pretty close to that , yes Wrong 🙂 The maximum boost that Chris uses is (+6db @ 18kHz) the majority of the PEQ settings are used for reduction of up to (-11db @ 600Hz). Chris also shows -5db Gain Level for the Celestion/K402 channel. So basically there is a 17db window of adjustment in Chris’s Xilica settings for the Celestion but only +6db of it is boost. miketn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMurg Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 10 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said: Wrong 🙂 The maximum boost that Chris uses is (+6db @ 18kHz) the majority of the PEQ settings are used for reduction of up to (-11db @ 600Hz). Chris also shows -5db Gain Level for the Celestion/K402 channel. So basically there is a 19db window of adjustment in Chris’s Xilica settings for the Celestion but only +6db of it is boost. miketn Yes, that's true. However, there is a about 20 dB gain difference across the frequency range of the HF settings from its lowest to highest points. it's just implemented as both cuts and boosts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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