My first Tube Integrated-a PrimaLuna Dialogue Two-any thoughts on Tubes that I should try to optimize sound???

[edzu1234]

My first Tube Integrated-a PrimaLuna Dialogue Two-any thoughts on Tubes that I should try to optimize sound???  I am looking at Mulllard?,  Telefunken?, Gold Lion?, Electro Harmonix?, Svetlana? and PSvane. 

 I am looking for someone who owns or has owned a PrimaLuna and has rolled different tubes in it.  Thank you in advance for your Input!

[Fido]

I have an EVO 400 that came with EL34s - all stock Primaluna tubes. I changed outthe two center preamp tubes to Kevins Stash Gold Lions and the EL34s to KT150s and I love the way it sounds now. The bass is deep and powerful and the mid range and highs sound fantastic. Still very warm and holographic but much more punch down low - More of a solid state feel for the low bass but all the warmth of an all tube Integrated.

[edzu1234]

I heard that the KT150's are not that big a difference maker between EL34's.  Did you try using the Gold Lions with the EL34's to gage the sound?

Also,the Dialogue Two is not designed to use the power of the KT150 Tube.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

2 hours ago, edzu1234 said:

I heard that the KT150's are not that big a difference maker between EL34's.  Did you try using the Gold Lions with the EL34's to gage the sound?

Also,the Dialogue Two is not designed to use the power of the KT150 Tube.

I have a nice set of Upscale Audio KT150s if you are interested.  I have recent testing on them and they are like new.  This will be cheaper than the Gold Lions or similar tubes. 

 

As far as 'not designed to use the power of the tube - this is a good thing, run them easy and let them last a very long time.  I am assuming that your Prime Luna amp can run these. 

[Fido]

30 minutes ago, tigerwoodKhorns said:

I have a nice set of Upscale Audio KT150s if you are interested.  I have recent testing on them and they are like new.  This will be cheaper than the Gold Lions or similar tubes. 

 

As far as 'not designed to use the power of the tube - this is a good thing, run them easy and let them last a very long time.  I am assuming that your Prime Luna amp can run these. 

How much are you selling the kt150s for

[henry4841]

NOS tubes are going to be hard to beat for durability and long life but very pricey as all tubes these days. Too much emphasis is put on a particular brand of new tubes. All are capable of running decent current and really comes down to how well they are made rather than the sound they make. Technically that is all a tube is, a device that develops an electron stream inside them and all of them do a good job of doing that. I do not think you will find any that do not sound really good. It really comes down how well they are made. Of course there are those that like to nit pick the difference in sound between them but I would not put too much into that unless you really know how good the person is saying so. They well could have an agenda. 

 

 You left out JJ tubes and from what I hear they are well made along with some of the other new production tubes. I have a Gold Lion that failed so I would will not pay extra for a set of them again. I like the Electro Harmonics KT-88's for price and performance along with JJ's. 

 

About to forget, congratulations on your new amp. From all that I have heard it is a quality built Chinese amp. 

[tigerwoodKhorns]

@edzu1234 Kevin Deal said that he advises customers to just run the tubes that came with the Prima Luina as they are very good tubes.  And he can easily sell more tubes if he gave other advice. 

 

So I think that you should start five threads and buy as many tubes as possible in the next week or so.  😈

 

Seriously, of course you are excited, but just try your amp for a little while. 

[billybob]

Was thinking yesterday, the amp surely came with tubes.

[tube fanatic]

It is not possible to generalize about how a particular brand of tube will sound in a given piece of equipment.  Even within a given brand normal production tolerances can result in subtle performance differences depending on the way the tubes are utilized.  Then there is the issue of individual preference of sound.  One person may listen to an amp and love it while someone else may dislike it intensely.  You need to conduct your own experiments and draw your own conclusions.  And, keep in mind, that there are times when a run of the mill NOS GE tube will sound better to a listener than a much more costly brand.

 

Maynard

[Dave1291]

^^^^ what Maynard said.  My stock PL tubes were getting some hours so I just freshened things up w/Kevin's cryo stash of Gold Lions.  They do sound sweet.   Good luck!

 

[KT88]

On 3/7/2023 at 1:16 PM, henry4841 said:

NOS tubes are going to be hard to beat for durability and long life but very pricey as all tubes these days. Too much emphasis is put on a particular brand of new tubes. All are capable of running decent current and really comes down to how well they are made rather than the sound they make. Technically that is all a tube is, a device that develops an electron stream inside them and all of them do a good job of doing that. I do not think you will find any that do not sound really good. It really comes down how well they are made. Of course there are those that like to nit pick the difference in sound between them but I would not put too much into that unless you really know how good the person is saying so. They well could have an agenda. 

 

 You left out JJ tubes and from what I hear they are well made along with some of the other new production tubes. I have a Gold Lion that failed so I would will not pay extra for a set of them again. I like the Electro Harmonics KT-88's for price and performance along with JJ's. 

 

About to forget, congratulations on your new amp. From all that I have heard it is a quality built Chinese amp. 

 

I agree, Henry. This discussion comes up again and again. I would like to contribute a little to sobering things up. With power amplifier tubes, it usually depends much more on the quality of the output transformer, and the intelligence of the circuit. Really "huge" sound differences can hardly be heard, apart from really junk.
I wonder how many consumers here blindly adopt the marketing strategy of today's major tube manufacturer "New Sensor". New Sensor is an American marketing company in New York. If I may say so, it is fakenews. In the past, people used to say "badge engineering" for cars when another sticker implied it was a "better" car, but it was the same. New Sensor has bought up the trademark rights of time-honored big names. Gold Lion, Mullard, Tungsol, Svetlana and many more. The biggest difference and investment with this manufacturer is the different cardboard boxes these tubes are put in. These New Sensor tubes have NOTHING! to do with the old big brands. Absolutely nothing. 30 years ago there were two qualities of tubes from Russia. The good ones came from St. Petersburg and they were called Svetlana. The cheap ones came from the Saratov plant. They were called Sovtek. Svetlana has been bankrupt for 20 years. Unfortunately. Mcintosh had used them as an OEM. Today you have to search for NOS "Winged C" to find a real Svetlana. New Sensor also bought the trademark rights to Svetlana, which are also cheap and short-lived today. And where do you think all these fake old big brands are cheaply imitated ? In the Saratov factory, all on the cheap and quite short-lived standard of Sovtek. 

 

There is a big difference between, say, 1960 and today. At that time, the technology of the tubes was innovatively developed and refined. Today, new tubes are copied on worn-out ancient production machines without innovation. 
It helps when choosing a tube today if something is known about the history of a manufacturer. That's why I'm coming to JJ now. I am not related to the company or an employee. It is only my good experience as a consumer that I would like to share. 
JJ took over the machines and employees from Tesla after the collapse of the Eastern Bloc. Czechoslovakia used to be one country. That changed 30 years ago. Today the Tesla company (still existing) is in Czech Republic, one of the two new small countries in the EU (Elon Musk had to pay a lot of money to be allowed to use this name for his car brand). Tesla makes innovative radar technology today and still builds very large transmitter tubes. They were the makers of very good audio tubes. When the decline of tube production started in Germany in the early 1970s, Telefunken sold all machines and know how to Tesla. That's why they had a fantastic KT88 EL 34 and many other power tubes on Telefunken machines. 

 

Especially the small tubes from Telefunken are very good. The innovation of Telefunken tension grid tubes E83CC, for example, Tesla continued to build in the same quality. 
Then the company JJ was founded in Slovakia. They took over everything from Tesla, the good quality of Telefunken machines etc. Out of a funny confusion about the names, nowadays the cheapest JJ ECC83 is of all things the famous tension grid tube, but that's just told in passing.
I have always used with satisfaction the JJ KT88 on my MC275. It is crazy but it is the cheapest KT88 tube on the whole market, before the Ukraine war for 29€ to have, now of course a little more. 

 

What sources do we have today where tubes are produced: Except for a few very expensive exotics like Western Electric, only three. China, Saratov in Russia and JJ. The Chinese can also build ok tubes, but the dealers get about 30% scrap outside the tolerances from China. What does the dealer do to survive, he sells it on to the consumer as best he can. I have reported in detail about Saratov. That leaves only JJ. And of course NOS. Six years ago I bought very good Sylvania 12AX7 from 1960 in the USA for very little money. They were branded by an organ manufacturer, Baldwin. They play very nicely in my MC C22CE.

 

 

 

[tigerwoodKhorns]

23 hours ago, KT88 said:

 

I agree, Henry. This discussion comes up again and again. I would like to contribute a little to sobering things up. With power amplifier tubes, it usually depends much more on the quality of the output transformer, and the intelligence of the circuit. Really "huge" sound differences can hardly be heard, apart from really junk.
I wonder how many consumers here blindly adopt the marketing strategy of today's major tube manufacturer "New Sensor". New Sensor is an American marketing company in New York. If I may say so, it is fakenews. In the past, people used to say "badge engineering" for cars when another sticker implied it was a "better" car, but it was the same. New Sensor has bought up the trademark rights of time-honored big names. Gold Lion, Mullard, Tungsol, Svetlana and many more. The biggest difference and investment with this manufacturer is the different cardboard boxes these tubes are put in. These New Sensor tubes have NOTHING! to do with the old big brands. Absolutely nothing. 30 years ago there were two qualities of tubes from Russia. The good ones came from St. Petersburg and they were called Svetlana. The cheap ones came from the Saratov plant. They were called Sovtek. Svetlana has been bankrupt for 20 years. Unfortunately. Mcintosh had used them as an OEM. Today you have to search for NOS "Winged C" to find a real Svetlana. New Sensor also bought the trademark rights to Svetlana, which are also cheap and short-lived today. And where do you think all these fake old big brands are cheaply imitated ? In the Saratov factory, all on the cheap and quite short-lived standard of Sovtek. 

 

There is a big difference between, say, 1960 and today. At that time, the technology of the tubes was innovatively developed and refined. Today, new tubes are copied on worn-out ancient production machines without innovation. 
It helps when choosing a tube today if something is known about the history of a manufacturer. That's why I'm coming to JJ now. I am not related to the company or an employee. It is only my good experience as a consumer that I would like to share. 
JJ took over the machines and employees from Tesla after the collapse of the Eastern Bloc. Czechoslovakia used to be one country. That changed 30 years ago. Today the Tesla company (still existing) is in Czech Republic, one of the two new small countries in the EU (Elon Musk had to pay a lot of money to be allowed to use this name for his car brand). Tesla makes innovative radar technology today and still builds very large transmitter tubes. They were the makers of very good audio tubes. When the decline of tube production started in Germany in the early 1970s, Telefunken sold all machines and know how to Tesla. That's why they had a fantastic KT88 EL 34 and many other power tubes on Telefunken machines. 

 

Especially the small tubes from Telefunken are very good. The innovation of Telefunken tension grid tubes E83CC, for example, Tesla continued to build in the same quality. 
Then the company JJ was founded in Slovakia. They took over everything from Tesla, the good quality of Telefunken machines etc. Out of a funny confusion about the names, nowadays the cheapest JJ ECC83 is of all things the famous tension grid tube, but that's just told in passing.
I have always used with satisfaction the JJ KT88 on my MC275. It is crazy but it is the cheapest KT88 tube on the whole market, before the Ukraine war for 29€ to have, now of course a little more. 

 

What sources do we have today where tubes are produced: Except for a few very expensive exotics like Western Electric, only three. China, Saratov in Russia and JJ. The Chinese can also build ok tubes, but the dealers get about 30% scrap outside the tolerances from China. What does the dealer do to survive, he sells it on to the consumer as best he can. I have reported in detail about Saratov. That leaves only JJ. And of course NOS. Six years ago I bought very good Sylvania 12AX7 from 1960 in the USA for very little money. They were branded by an organ manufacturer, Baldwin. They play very nicely in my MC C22CE.

 

 

 

Wow, good info, any backup for this or articles to read?  I see this with tools and it is disappointing. 

 

I see that guitar players seem to use JJ's quite a bit and I guess amp makers will want to use tubes that make their gear sound good out of the box. 

[henry4841]

I recently built two SE KT88 amplifiers. One has Electro-Harmonix KT-88's and the other JJ's. Slight edge goes to the JJ's in my book. 

[tigerwoodKhorns]

The OP is MIA.  I think he bought five sets of tubes and is ignoring us. 😁  As long as he is having fun. 

 

I just bought Mullard reissues for VRDs that came with JJs.  I just tested the JJs and then set up the Mullards and have been listening.

[henry4841]

11 hours ago, tigerwoodKhorns said:

The OP is MIA.  I think he bought five sets of tubes and is ignoring us. 😁  As long as he is having fun. 

 

I just bought Mullard reissues for VRDs that came with JJs.  I just tested the JJs and then set up the Mullards and have been listening.

Look forward to results, opinion. 

[KT88]

21 hours ago, tigerwoodKhorns said:

Wow, good info, any backup for this or articles to read?  I see this with tools and it is disappointing. 

 

I see that guitar players seem to use JJ's quite a bit and I guess amp makers will want to use tubes that make their gear sound good out of the box. 

Here is a informative even if a commercial website where you can see a physical comparison of the fake Saratov Mullard vs. genuine old Mullard tubes. you can on the right part of the site also find an electrical comparison in an own article.

https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/mullard-ecc83-12ax7-reissue-vs-original-a-physical-comparison/

 

 

A little bit about the history of JJ from the same source as above.

https://www.effectrode.com/news/tesla-heritage-jj-tubes-modern-tube-manufacturer/

 

Vita of Tesla company

https://www.electron-tubes.cz/en/historie/

 

This article is very critical about JJ quality but it is a very informative read about Telefunken and Tesla tubes. I think that JJ is better then it is described in the article.

https://www.jacmusic.com/techcorner/ARTICLES/English/Portraits/E83CC/ECC83-part-numbering1.html

 

About bad copies of NOS tubes and how to identify them.

https://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/index.html

 

It doesn't get easier in orientation when old names resurface. This "Telefunken" brand seems to belong to a US company. The wensite is obviously a bit older. They claim that "their" Telefunken tubes are made at JJ.

https://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.com/product-category/products/vacuum-tubes/

 

Was discussed critically

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/telefunken-tubes-being-reissued-by-jj.1404444/

 

 

 

 

 

[Shakeydeal]

The Mullard EL34 reissue is a nice sounding tube.

[82 Cornwalls]

On 3/10/2023 at 3:44 PM, KT88 said:

I wonder how many consumers here blindly adopt the marketing strategy of today's major tube manufacturer "New Sensor". New Sensor is an American marketing company in New York. If I may say so, it is fake news. In the past, people used to say "badge engineering" for cars when another sticker implied it was a "better" car, but it was the same. New Sensor has bought up the trademark rights of time-honored big names. Gold Lion, Mullard, Tungsol, Svetlana and many more. The biggest difference and investment with this manufacturer is the different cardboard boxes these tubes are put in. These New Sensor tubes have NOTHING! to do with the old big brands. Absolutely nothing. .

 

Sorry, but going to agree to disagree on this. Too many accounts of differences in tube construction, how the coatings look, and sound from respected tube sellers and users to say they are all the same tubes and it is just marketing.

 

Not sure what you mean about "badge engineering" for cars (maybe something that happened in your country???), but that is a topic for another day. 🙂

[82 Cornwalls]

10 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

The Mullard EL34 reissue is a nice sounding tube.

 

I really like the new production Mullard KT88s in my Kegger/Blue Glow based SET amp. At first I had Sovtek 6550WEs, after swapping in the reissue Mullards I gave the 6550WEs away. Of course in another amplifier the 6550WEs may be the better choice.

[KT88]

9 hours ago, 82 Cornwalls said:

 

Sorry, but going to agree to disagree on this. Too many accounts of differences in tube construction, how the coatings look, and sound from respected tube sellers and users to say they are all the same tubes and it is just marketing.

 

Not sure what you mean about "badge engineering" for cars (maybe something that happened in your country???), but that is a topic for another day. 🙂

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_badge-engineered_vehicles