Lascala cabinet resonance

[mikebse2a3]

1 hour ago, Stephen Buck said:

What's with Germans and their need to control others?  Let me break it down for you....

 

1) User complains of cabinet resonance, references specific songs and offsets

2) How many participants tried it?

3) If other users report no cabinet resonance as cause of phenomena, what else could it be?

4) In my experiment: The Isaac Warble is in the mid bass region, disappears when one channel played.

5) This points to the mix, and how it resolves on AL5 with a given setup, does not occur on NS-5000s but different location offset.

6) Arguments ensue about bass mixing, two videos of pro-stereo bass presented, showing biggest most modern artists are using it.  

7) Isaac mix is old, waiting for mix engineer to respond to email.  Probably heard it a million times.  New Isaac video has different EQ of his voice.  Problem solved.  

😎 Problem goes away in my experiment if PEQ and tone controls set flat, tried PEQ of 148Hz, Q:8, -7db with no audible difference at :37.  

😎 Fascists continue to point and shoot and not do anything useful. 

 

@Stephen Buck Your Germans and Fascists comments are totally inappropriate and among the most foolish I’ve seen on this forum in 20 years here.

[KT88]

27 minutes ago, Stephen Buck said:

Focus on the topic, the topic rolls along.  Focus on an individual because lonely and need attention, get slapped back. You need attention too apparently.  But I'm not an industry shill.  I'm just an owner. Lots of shills here killing time. 

 

Well, isn't that a textbook example of what psychotherapists call a projection?
Sorry, this is a forum by and for Klipsch speakers. Nothing else should be of interest here. And we should all be grateful that this forum exists. We don't have to do much more than behave fairly.

[KT88]

8 minutes ago, Stephen Buck said:

Then I suggest you respond with information for the topic instead of your armchair evals of my posts.  I'm truly sorry you don't understand what I am posting and why. 

 

I understand very well what you post but I don't know why you post it. For me, the conversation with you is over. There is no point for me to waste my time with you anymore.

[mikebse2a3]

20 minutes ago, Stephen Buck said:

Sometimes bullies need to be told to stick to the topic and leave others alone. 

 

@KT88 is a valued member who has always contributed in positive ways for many years on this forum. 

[OO1]

5 hours ago, Stephen Buck said:

 

😎 Fascists continue to point and shoot and not do anything useful. 

there aint no F.........s   , strictly Boneheads   

[billybob]

Klipsch is a global company for some time now. Members here from all over. That is a good thing. Members abroad since forum inception. Saw yesterday you are about to have an anniversary.

Don't forget to welcome new members here. Some here sensitive to perceived criticism. That is a 2 way street.

Just remember, we are all equal here. Still working on my people skills here and, I make mistakes and do alot of editing.

Self moderation here recommended as, constructive.

[Racer X]

Seldom see such a troll.

 

Is it really that hard not to ?

 

[Woofers and Tweeters]

48 minutes ago, Racer X said:

Seldom see such a troll.

I would say that we've had worse trolls on here, but that might be taken as a challenge. 

[Flevoman]

I started this topic because, despite how fantastic I found the AL5 to sound, I often heard a disturbing resonance in songs. When listening to the same songs on my headphones or other speakers, this resonance wasn't present. I could not determine the cause of what I was hearing. Recording? Acoustics? Or perhaps the resonance often mentioned in relation to the LaScala? .

Thanks to all the information obtained on this forum, assistance from @mikebse2a3, and extensive reading on Google, I now have a reasonably clear understanding of what's going on. I finally know that what I hear is a bump in the 100Hz-160Hz range.

 

The pronounced audibility of this bump is, in my situation at least, a combination of factors.

 

- First and foremost, recording plays a role. Some songs are recorded with a certain dynamic that enhances the effect.
- In my case, room acoustics also play a definite role. I remember, at the beginning of this journey, placing the speakers lengthwise in the room. It didn't eliminate the issue, but it reduced it. However, placing my setup this way is not an option.

- The Amplifier Choice.

Currently, I have five different amplifiers, and the choice of amplifier definitely influences the extent to which this bump can be accentuated. I own a beautiful 300B SET amplifier, but its warm character amplifies this range even more. At the moment, I find the Melody 2A3 PP and the 45 SET to sound most pleasing because they produce a cleaner sound, minimizing the amplification of the bump. (edited :I forgot to mention this one) 

- My personal sensitivity to this bump is undeniable. I am convinced that I perceive it more strongly than others. It's an annoying background noise that doesn't align with the open and detailed character the speaker possesses. However, others who have listened to my setup didn't hear what I meant or simply didn't find it bothersome.
- The speaker itself, I am convinced that the LaScala accentuates this range. Whether it's due to cabinet resonance or horn properties, I'm not sure. But the LaScala emphasizes the range around 100Hz-160Hz. I am convinced of this because there is ample information, including tests with LaScala, consistently showing a bump around 150Hz. Additionally, I conducted an acoustic measurement with DSpeaker, and comparing it with other measurements reveals a consistently similar curve around 100Hz-160Hz.

 

Thanks to a tip from Mike, I bought a DSpeaker to address acoustic issues. It's not exactly an audiophile device, but it works. When the bump in that range is corrected by DSpeaker, the sound I found so bothersome is indeed gone. I am pleased with this because now I know exactly what it is, where it is, and I have control over it. So you might think, let DSpeaker do its job, and I have nothing to complain about. Well, not entirely.

With this fantastic correction, the speaker's character has also changed significantly. The sound is much cleaner; I can better follow the low end and hear more detail. When switching between correction on and off, the difference is significant. Only when the bump is truly gone do you realize how much coloration it adds to the music. However, I miss the punch and kick. The sax lacks body, and the same goes for the vocals—they sound thinner. Where has that typical LaScala sound gone?

 

Interestingly, my own conclusion is that the LaScala's sound character seems to derive in part from the bump. Eliminating it also eliminates that characteristic LaScala sound that I appreciate. Apparently, as the LaScala accentuates this range, it becomes more critical. If, due to acoustics, this range is also emphasized a bit too much, it becomes overwhelming for me, and I can hear an annoying thickening in some songs.

For me, the solution will not be to use the room corrector because it eliminates too much for my taste. Instead, I need to find a way to lower that range by a few dB. Just enough to no longer perceive it as bothersome but still preserving enough to let the LaScala be the LaScala. In theory, this can also be done with the DSpeaker, but this device doesn't come across as very audiophile. It pains me to permanently incorporate it into my setup.

Anyway, this weekend I will conduct an A/B test with my girlfriend, and if there is truly no downgrade in the music for me, well... no matter how much trouble I have with this device, it does its job well, so I'll keep it in the setup for now 😉

 

May I thank everyone who has brainstormed with me and provided input. I am genuinely happy that I now have a clear understanding of what I hear, can articulate it, and know what to do about it. And to avoid giving the wrong impression, I think the AL5 speakers are fantastic. I listen to them every day for several hours and genuinely enjoy them.

 

Melvin

[Invidiosulus]

18 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

I started this topic because, despite how fantastic I found the AL5 to sound, I often heard a disturbing resonance in songs. When listening to the same songs on my headphones or other speakers, this resonance wasn't present. I could not determine the cause of what I was hearing. Recording? Acoustics? Or perhaps the resonance often mentioned in relation to the LaScala? .

Thanks to all the information obtained on this forum, assistance from @mikebse2a3, and extensive reading on Google, I now have a reasonably clear understanding of what's going on. I finally know that what I hear is a bump in the 100Hz-160Hz range.

 

The pronounced audibility of this bump is, in my situation at least, a combination of factors.

 

- First and foremost, recording plays a role. Some songs are recorded with a certain dynamic that enhances the effect.
- In my case, room acoustics also play a definite role. I remember, at the beginning of this journey, placing the speakers lengthwise in the room. It didn't eliminate the issue, but it reduced it. However, placing my setup this way is not an option.
- My personal sensitivity to this bump is undeniable. I am convinced that I perceive it more strongly than others. It's an annoying background noise that doesn't align with the open and detailed character the speaker possesses. However, others who have listened to my setup didn't hear what I meant or simply didn't find it bothersome.
- The speaker itself, I am convinced that the LaScala accentuates this range. Whether it's due to cabinet resonance or horn properties, I'm not sure. But the LaScala emphasizes the range around 100Hz-160Hz. I am convinced of this because there is ample information, including tests with LaScala, consistently showing a bump around 150Hz. Additionally, I conducted an acoustic measurement with DSpeaker, and comparing it with other measurements reveals a consistently similar curve around 100Hz-160Hz.

 

Thanks to a tip from Mike, I bought a DSpeaker to address acoustic issues. It's not exactly an audiophile device, but it works. When the bump in that range is corrected by DSpeaker, the sound I found so bothersome is indeed gone. I am pleased with this because now I know exactly what it is, where it is, and I have control over it. So you might think, let DSpeaker do its job, and I have nothing to complain about. Well, not entirely.

With this fantastic correction, the speaker's character has also changed significantly. The sound is much cleaner; I can better follow the low end and hear more detail. When switching between correction on and off, the difference is significant. Only when the bump is truly gone do you realize how much coloration it adds to the music. However, I miss the punch and kick. The sax lacks body, and the same goes for the vocals—they sound thinner. Where has that typical LaScala sound gone?

 

Interestingly, my own conclusion is that the LaScala's sound character seems to derive in part from the bump. Eliminating it also eliminates that characteristic LaScala sound that I appreciate. Apparently, as the LaScala accentuates this range, it becomes more critical. If, due to acoustics, this range is also emphasized a bit too much, it becomes overwhelming for me, and I can hear an annoying thickening in some songs.

For me, the solution will not be to use the room corrector because it eliminates too much for my taste. Instead, I need to find a way to lower that range by a few dB. Just enough to no longer perceive it as bothersome but still preserving enough to let the LaScala be the LaScala. In theory, this can also be done with the DSpeaker, but this device doesn't come across as very audiophile. It pains me to permanently incorporate it into my setup.

Anyway, this weekend I will conduct an A/B test with my girlfriend, and if there is truly no downgrade in the music for me, well... no matter how much trouble I have with this device, it does its job well, so I'll keep it in the setup for now 😉

 

May I thank everyone who has brainstormed with me and provided input. I am genuinely happy that I now have a clear understanding of what I hear, can articulate it, and know what to do about it. And to avoid giving the wrong impression, I think the AL5 speakers are fantastic. I listen to them every day for several hours and genuinely enjoy them.

 

Melvin

Id be curious to know what the EQ curves applied by the dspeaker device actually looked like.

Roys recommended PEQ with a Q:8 is very narrow centered on 148hz.

 

[Shakeydeal]

In all honesty, if this anomaly presents itself in a very small percentage of your favorite recordings, why do anything?

Let’s say it’s 1 out of a 100. Is it really worth the effort? Focus on the music that does sound good. And if you really must play that 1% , just suck it up and enjoy the music and not sweat the less than stellar recording quality.

 

That advice is free and worth what you paid.

[KT88]

15 minutes ago, Invidiosulus said:

Id be curious to know what the EQ curves applied by the dspeaker device actually looked like.

Roys recommended PEQ with a Q:8 is very narrow centered on 148hz.

 

 

When Flevoman describes that it sounds thinner and more disembodied with the DSPeaker, even in the overall impression of a tenor sax frequency range, this could indicate that the Q that DSPeaker automatically sets does not have quite such a high Q value. Roy's Q=8 could be chosen to be narrow-banded to attenuate a peak but not change the overall character of the LS.

[Flevoman]

23 minutes ago, Invidiosulus said:

Id be curious to know what the EQ curves applied by the dspeaker device actually looked like.

Roys recommended PEQ with a Q:8 is very narrow centered on 148hz.

 

 

 The red line is without correction, black line is with. 

 

@KT88 to be honest, Roys settings was not doing much for my situation. 

 

 

[KT88]

The display shows a significant difference, impressive. Just as a trial could you adjust it afterwards so that it is a little less flat/linear in the range between 100 and 160Hz? But with a very slight curvature upwards? Then the "warmth" would come back to the sound. It is precisely the frequency range that pretends the full bass in an LS3/5a and is indispensable there.

[mikebse2a3]

5 hours ago, KT88 said:

The display shows a significant difference, impressive. Just as a trial could you adjust it afterwards so that it is a little less flat/linear in the range between 100 and 160Hz? But with a very slight curvature upwards? Then the "warmth" would come back to the sound. It is precisely the frequency range that pretends the full bass in an LS3/5a and is indispensable there.

 

 @KT88 yes I believe he could add a PEQ: 148Hz / Q:8 / Level: (+2 to +5db range) as a trial to compensate for some of what the Auto-Room Compensation adjusted it to. If it proves to be a move in the right direction for @Flevoman then it could be fine tuned if needed to reach his listening goal.             NOTE: This is Roy’s PEQ setting except we are now using +db levels to compensate some for the Auto-Room Compensation and find the balance Flevoman desires. Other PEQ; filters can be added to fine tune the region more if desired.

 

It’s important to understand that when you compensate for room modes the bass/mid-bass can at first be perceived as light versus before the compensation. Because the problem room modes are adding a false boost which also mask clarity/detail then by the room compensation removing this false boosting the “perception” can be of a much improved clarity/detail in bass and also in the midrange and hi frequency but also of this perceived lighter bass/mid-bass and some listeners will find it desirable to increase the level in the corrected region. The DSpeaker can perform this in several ways like the PEQ I’m suggesting above. It might take some time with trial and error to find the balance someone desires but it should be achievable.

 

I do understand not everyone is comfortable with the process or desire to spend the time to become familiar enough with what a DSP EQ offers and that’s understandable.

 

miketn🙂

 

 

[Woofers and Tweeters]

On 1/11/2024 at 12:57 PM, Troll said:

I think if you take the time to comprehend the two videos posted above where actual mix engineers talk about it and you can hear it for yourself then you might understand. 
 

I do understand comb filtering in a large or open air venue but in the average living room with fast reflections it’s not material. 
 

Anyway give them a watch and respond as if you learned something. 

I had to LOL at those statements. Some people are known as SPECIAL ME. 

[Tom05]

A lot of what he said didn’t  hold up to scrutiny . To bad though , just as we we’re warming up to the bastard ,we find out he was a troll 🤓

[Flevoman]

Let's move on; there's no need to make this bigger than it is. We all share the same passion for music and Klipsch. Please let this be the subject. 

[Tom05]

25 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

Let's move on; there's no need to make this bigger than it is. We all share the same passion for music and Klipsch. Please let this be the subject. 

Right let’s move on  , how about dropping the  resonance issue , I think you’ve made your point .

[Tom05]

1 hour ago, Flevoman said:

Let's move on; there's no need to make this bigger than it is. We all share the same passion for music and Klipsch. Please let this be the subject. 

No offense Flevoman, but I don’t think it’s wrong for myself or others to acknowledge  what happened yesterday, I’m sure that lots of us were following the troll thread  with interest, a little short lived reflection and humor won’t hurt a thing .