It's a Grand Illusion

[Deang]

It's been fun reading all of the new posts by Leo, Erik, and Kelly. It was even more fun a while back going though all of the ads on AudiogoN, and the question occured to me: What in God's name is everyone looking for? So much stuff, so much GOOD stuff -- and off it goes to a new owner, after having been rejected by a previous owner. Why buy something someone else has already decided is inadequate? It would seem that we are all in fact not looking for the same thing.

Can we be sure of this?

I'm not sure. Is it possible that we really want the same thing -- but at different times? Let me explain.

I listen to primarily Rock-n-Roll and Alternative. The material is highly compressed, yet very demanding. To accurately render it, there must be excellent drive characteristics. 90% of my listening is with this type of material. However, it is not all I listen too. Though I don't listen to Jazz, Classical, or Blues -- I do listen to material where terms like "transparency" and "ambience" have relevence. Descriptions like "black background", and "space between instuments" also have meaning in this context. However, these aren't the things I notice or care about 90% of the time. In that context, in order for the system to get out of the way and just let the music through -- the room needs to be sufficiently energized and somewhat saturated with sound.

Now think about that last statement for a moment. I think we have an inherent "knowing" of what sounds "right" when we put on an album or disc. Those of you who listen to material with unamplified instruments KNOW what these instruments sound like. We all mostly know what the human voice sounds like in open air, or lightly amplified in close quarters. I think most here also know what a GOOD Rock Concert sounds like.

In order for the system to vanish and recreate the illusion of realism we are looking for, the system HAS to be capable of pushing the characteristics our mind (not our ears) "knows" is associated with the particular music type, instrument, or vocals -- into the listening space before us. Unless this can be done, our attention is drawn to the incorrectness of the system -- and not the music.

Am I saying anything new? No, we all know these things, but I think it becomes lost on us sometimes. I know I am especially guilty of this while posting while tied into a fit over some SET related post. My apologies to all.

I have immensely enjoyed every tube amp I've had in my system. Each one has sounded fabulous in its own right, and I really don't ever want to get into another heated discussion arguing the superiority of one topology over the other. It's really a complete waste of keystrokes. My position is, and forever will be -- that decent tube amps all sound wonderful, and most are very easy to live with regardless of the particular strengths or weaknesses of each.

Kelly is correct, and ideally, the perfect situation is to have two systems. For those of us who really can't afford to build two "high end" or semi-high end systems, the proper course of action is to build a system around the music we listen to and enjoy the greatest majority of the time. Some who enjoy many music types, with time being equally split between them -- will have to make hard decisions.

[mobile homeless]

Nice post, Dean. I was working on this monster post on this very subject and I cant seem to find a spot for it. I might put it in this thread. Well done, though. While there are objective truths out there, the more you are around this sordid hobby, and the more gear you hear in various situations and systems, the more you realize that making blanket statements concerning audio will be refuted and often contradicted, not only by others, but by your own self given time and experience. The variables are endless and most people tend to overlook variables and extenuating circumstances that affect the perceptions and comments (not to mention the tremendous variability in experience).

Great subject and a timely post to boot.

kh

[NOSValves]

While there are objective truths out there, the more you are around this sordid hobby, and the more gear you hear in various situations and systems, the more you realize that making blanket statements concerning audio will be refuted and often contradicted, not only by others, but by your own self given time and experience.

Boy have I learned that the hard way a time or two

[Deang]

Yes -- it's a painful reality.

[Painful Reality]

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On 8/16/2003 1:51:09 PM DeanG wrote:

Yes -- it's a painful reality.

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Heh!

[sheltie dave]

Speaking of illusions, is there a consensus for a preamp for the Quicksilver 60's? I'm probably heading out to Washington state in two weeks for a two month contract job, and I can jump on a good tube preamp if ya'll see one before I leave so my wife can enjoy the fruits of my labor....(she hasn't heard the cornerhorns with tubes yet

Dean, you mentioned the Cary AE3, and there is one on audiogon - is it a decent selection, or would it be better to wait for something else when I get back?

I have both King Crimson and Paul Simon's greatest hits CDs. Widely divergent and yet two glorious examples of guitar based music, one that's pure pop and one that is anything but. For tonight, they be pushing the horns via the hk 630 again.

Ciao

[Deang]

The AE-3 is a very good choice, but the one on Audiogon right now is too high -- he's simply asking too much. In picture, it looks like the transformer casing has been scuffed. These show up quite often for $350. You could email him, point out they regularly go for much less, and mention the scuffs in the picture.

If all you need is a linestage, you might also check out Mapletree Audio.

[JBryan]

I, for one, enjoy reading heated debates between the audio factions. Its often funny, sometimes mean but always entertaining and occasionally someone will say something intelligent.

The more I read, the more ignorant I feel about audio. There's just so much equipment out there - and so many diverse opinions. Further, no one can predict how a particular component will sound in my system in my room. Opinions and reviews are an excellent resource and I will certainly acknowledge those "gurus" who pointed me in the right direction but what seemed to be a great-sounding piece to some folks, didn't make it my set up. There's just too many variables involved with the decision-making process beginning with what's going on between the listener's ears. Often, its not just the sound of the gear that influences the decision. That's why you'll find great gear on such places as Audiogon and eBay. Perfectly decent pieces in many systems but for whatever reason they just didn't satisfy the owners' specific aesthetic needs. Since I buy and sell most of my gear on Audiogon - I'm happy with the arrangement. Have fun, Bryan

[sunnysal]

bravo Dean. hit the nail on the head with that post. we all want different things simply because we are all different, physically, emotionally and experientially. some would tell us about the "greater truths" that we need to adhere too to reach audio nirvana but the painful reality is each persons path is an individual one. the greater truths can help us organize, analyze and ultimatley guide us towards that final aural reward but we all have to decide for ourselves. now we need someone to do some gizmo-type writing here for the circle to be completed. wow, bummer man I lost my groove...tony

[BlueMonk]

Dean --

Well thought out post. As an audio newbie, I can't explain how much of a benefit it is to read many of the advanced members' posts. Amazing how far I have come in a short time -- all due to the this board(and I guess the internet.) However, it is especially interesting when someone like you steps back and questions the framework of our hobby.

Thanks,

Neal

[Mallette]

This group is different from any other of which I've been involved in that, while having extreme differences, people get along and agree to disagree.

Shame we can figure out how to can it... (CD is too harsh, too many can't play an LP, and nobody would know about it if we issued it on SACD/DVD-A) ;-)

Dave

[Jef]

Well put Dean,

for a long time now I suspect that a lot of people spot differences when switching between various equipments (whatever it be) and tend to focus on those differences instead on focussing on 'real' versus the equipment they are hearing - this comparison technique works fabulous in a shop getting drawn to the more 'performant' (and expensive) pieces not necessarily the better ones.

I was very satisfied when returning from a Deep Purple concert earlier this year noticing that my system was capable of reproducing the life sound - as I remembered it - perfectly, volume and presence it was all there.

And this was of course the main reason I choose Klipsch - the sheer dynamics and acuracy.

Best regards ... Jef

Ps and I was close to the stage

[NOSValves]

Jeff

I was very satisfied when returning from a Deep Purple concert earlier this year noticing that my system was capable of reproducing the life sound - as I remembered it - perfectly, volume and presence it was all there.

That statement was so close to my experience earlier this year when I went to a Neal Young concert. I listen almost constantly to my system everyday while rebuilding gear so am very in tune to it. I sat at the concert thinking man this sounds just like at home except I can play it at higher SLP It was a real treat and the concert was is a acoustic amphitheater and we had row 20 front and center so yes the sound was very well done.

Craig

[Cut-Throat]

I've left perfectly good girlfriends for the same reasons! Or they have left me

Something about something new!

Yesterday I ordered a pair of speakers that people have told me it's the last speakers I will ever buy. If that is the case, it will save me over $150K over the next 20-30 years.

That will make this the best financial investment I have ever made in my life. - God, these things are easy to justify if you just put a little 'sound' reasoning into it! Now I feel almost scroogelike for dropping the $6.5 K on these speakers!

[Audible Nectar]

"Yesterday I ordered a pair of speakers that people have told me it's the last speakers I will ever buy. If that is the case, it will save me over $150K over the next 20-30 years."

So you bought a new set of Klipschorns???? What finish???????

[Cut-Throat]

"So you bought a new set of Klipschorns???? What finish???????"

Well, they may have been my choice, if I had proper corners, because I've actually heard them.

I ordered a pair of speakers that I've never heard! - The Auris II from Holland. Based on some crazy recommendations.

[leok]

So many variables and so little time. What I hear through my system now, I had never considered possible .. actually never considered at all. In a way, my system is a compilation of ideas I've heard, mostly here. Often I've had no idea, at first, what some people were driving at until intensionally or by accident I found myself facing something new (good or bad) and remembered some post describing it exactly. I think, for many of us, this is an opportunity to participate in something we couldn't begin to do alone.

leok

[WMcD]

There is something to be said for the analogy: One girl's frog is another girl's prince. And kissing one may reverse the situation.

But there are rational decisions.

Some people are trading up and that creates a used market.

Some old stuff becomes, in the eyes of others, classics. Classics are traded for new technology.

We see from time to time in speakers that people get bigger and smaller homes and naturally there is some trading based on that.

There is the suggestion that all this stuff is equivalent and just being traded around for no reason. I don't think that is correct. Some of the choices may be emotional, others are practical.

Best,

Gil

[Mallette]

Lordy, has this thread run amok.

Love it.

Dave

[IndyKlipschFan]

Amok amok amok... hahahaha

I think well said alluding to the "Holy Grail" of all audio speakers is in the EARS of the beholder. I had the chance to join Craig (NosValves) in Lima, Ohio at the Midwest Audiofest. (Which I will return to, just for fun.) Think 2500-3000 basically all guys, some with big egos as to what sounds good and why...with some obtaining success and some failing miserably!

DR Bruce Edgar (who showed the famous Edgarhorns) has a big system that was pretty good, but I will still keep my Klipschorns thank you. And his other stuff.... Not even close.

I got to meet Rick and Steve (the names are fake..) Who, with a passion for audio, make speaker cabinets by hand as a hobby. They create beautiful cabinets filled with very high end drivers ordered from DIY magazines that matched together sounded wonderful. If they make four pairs a year they are happy. Two for sale, and two for themselves. (Again keeping my Klipschorns again..LOL.. But you get the idea.) It's a hobby and a part time business... and in some way fun, with a sense of pride too.

I say this, because we tend to get very protective of our own needs and wants. We forget on the bulletin board of newbies to the world of audio, or when someone asks an obvious question that we all know and inside we go arrrg.,. what is he.... just stupid?

Yes, our needs change, but so do our wants and desires. Kinda like going to your 20th High School reunion, only to find Garth Brooks song... "Unanswered Prayers" ring sooo true too. And yes there is a huge difference between needs wants and desires. Especially 20 yrs later!

My 2 Cents