Olorin Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 From the last page of the "PWK's Amps" thread up there, it seems pretty obvious that some of the members haven't learned to read the warnings. There are about three that can't seem to STFU and just get along. They seem not to know who they are. I'll not name names, else they'd just come flame over here and we'd lose the whole shebang. It is just like elementary school -- one kid can't shut up, so everyone puts their heads on their desk. Fair? Of course not. A reality of the environment? Yep. So if you're one of the causers, please learn to knock it off. Failing that, just go away. I promise I'll miss you less than I'll miss the forum. As for the rest of us, I'm sorry something we like got taken away because some allegedly grown men can't get past the third grade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurs Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 moon - I guess I get frustrated with the whole thing....this is an audio forum, not a battleground for free-speech or any other rights. I come here to exchange information, learn some things, have a laugh every now and again, and I guess I don't get it when members act like rude, self-righteous children, and then try to play up the themes of "intolerance" or "censoring" without ever taking a look in the mirror at their own innapropriate behavior. I support Klipsch providing this forum, including taking measure on those who get out of line, and would like to see it be what it was meant to be...AN AUDIO FORUM....not "the forum where you can say whatever to whomever you want and insult others to make yourself feel pathetically superior"....it seems a few of us really want to complicate the uncomplicated and will probably screw it up for the whole group who never really asked/wanted to be exposed to their ridiculous opinions or exchanges in the first place...whew, I feel better now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Guys, they I warned people over and over again that they did this 2 years ago here in General, for roughly the same reason. Political hotbutton topics got out of control and people starting getting ugly at each other. Klipsch is not bound to free speech laws here. They are well within their rights as a private corporation running a private forum to demand civil interaction between members. We, as a collective, should demand similar interaction from each other. As far as this being "the beginning of the end" - nonsense! The Klipsch forums did not die when General was closed for a week, the Klipsch forums are not going to die when 2 channel is shut down for the weekend. The only thing that will kill the forums is, as Trey stated, continued infighting between members. You guys just need to keep your damned tempers in check and argue civilly or don't argue. If you can't respond without getting hot under the collar, do us all a favor and stay out of the discussion that's making you angry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Look, like the FCC chiming in now on what is "decent" or "indecent", we have two choices: (1) Either we self-police (2) Or they'll police for us. The second option includes shutting the forum down. For those vocal few who haven't yet learned restraint, it might be a good time to acquire a little. This place, for all its faults, is the best forum I've visited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Heretic, It does seem a little odd, now that you mention it... Maybe I don't understand how this forum thing works, but it seems to me that the posts in question are really out-of-nowhere, sort of like a continuation of some argument that we only get to see portions of and doesn't even have anything to do with the subject at hand. Am I missing something? DM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 I feel like I'm in grade school...like I just witnessed a classroom fight between two classmates that I had no direct contact with, but the whole entire class gets punished and has to serve in detention because we were there in the room when the fight occured! ----------------- You missed the: "If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem." It might not be a popular point today with a "me first" society, but it is reality. All of us are responsible for what we say and must take responsibility for it. The, " I didn't say anything bad, so why should I be punished" arguement gets rather lame after a while. I hear it at least three to four times a day at school. What exactly did you do to solve the problem or prevent it from happening? If we let those who want to run the forum for their own vested self-interest, then we have to deal with the consequences. Leave the trolls alone. Disagree please, but back up your arguement with facts, observations (not the first thing off the top of your head) Don't take the bait (if there is no one to argue with, then the culprits will get bored) Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olorin Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 D-Man, I'm fairly new here, but I've run across some things from the past when I've searched for old posts on Choruses, etc. Some of these guys have animosity and pissing contests going back a couple years. In some cases, it seems that someone said something that rankled someone else, and neither one really got over it. I have an idea -- in this corner, we'll have ***** and ******, and they can defend the *** amp topology. Over here, **** and **** can fight in favor of ***** amps. I'll rent the sumo suits, and we'll take up a collection for the kegs. If they still can't smile at one another and GET THE **** OVER IT after that, the rest of us can take turns kicking them until they submit. So yeah, there's history, and there's religion, and there are tribal alliances . . . over tubes and chips and wires and magnets. Sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I agree that a little civility is called for in this forum. What concerns me though is that the response from the KlipschKops is going to cause us to tiptoe around each other and be a little too agreeable. Hell, I love the pp v. set debate. You can learn alot from those passionate flame wars. Where are we to draw the line? What is permissible disagreement and what is over the line? You would think that this should be clear enough, right? Sort of a "If you have to ask, don't post it rule." I don't think it is that clear. A recent example - The P.W.K.'s amps thread was going along fine - more or less. The exception would have been some questionable posts or positions by Neo and the responses to same. Sure, sure it was just a thinly veiled pp v. set v. solid state discussion. Trey's response, however, was a bit confusing. A story of his personal experiences with PWK the point of which appeared to be to end the discussion by telling us not only how it was, but why we didn't know enough about the topic to be posting about it. Interesting story? Sure. Relevant even, save for the tone. It was condescending and meant to put a stop to what he determined to be "fighting." I agree that Klipsch has the right to define appropriate content and enforce it as well. In the future I hope that that power is exercised in accordance with the same standards (whatever they may be) and with the same degree of emotional detachment that the forum members are expected to display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Reading through these threads on being shut down etc. It had not occurred to me before that there are a number of different assumptions behind the assorted different takes on what is o.k. behavior... or what Klipsch folks ought to be doing or ought not to be doing to order the forum... While it is proper that forum members should feel free enough to make themselves at home here... At the same time it is also proper to remember that forum members are guests who are receiving the kind hospitality of Klipsch. I think it will be easy enough to enjoy the BBS, exchange ideas, and whatever... all that need be done is to refrain from fouling the nest while on line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Things are not so bad, think of this poor individual and freedom of academic dialogue........ http://online.wsj.com/article_email/0,,SB107957189848758725-IRjfINnlah3n5ytbYGHbK6Im5,00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 In my view, Klipsh has every right to shut down this forum at will and without any explanation. I'd miss my buddies; but it is Klipsch show. Talk of free speech is all well and good. None the less, if some invitee to my humble abode started misbehaving, I'd toss out the blighter. This would happen very quickly if there was a verbal attack on another invitee. Take your free speech out to Lincoln Park. In Lincoln park the episode may be played out again with a man shouting to the wind. But it is not going to be in my world of invited guests and good buddies. Here, in my space, I insist on politeness to all. Klipsch probably sees it the same way. Gil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 There is an old saying that says: Freedom of the press only belongs to those who own the press. Cheers, Marvel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsakura Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I believe the mods are glad to read most of the post in this thread. As I mod in other forums myself.... I find certain commons when a section was shut down and huge debates in rest of the sections: People keep debating and asking for opening the section before schedule because they DO care and love the board, just feel home here The folks who didn't do anything wrong also regain and remind their self discipline by learning from the problem. Poorly someone who did wrong would never think about this point. No one really cares what you say if you respect others and polite enough. Who cares if you say "I'm so dumb a$$" (I do blame myself for this periodically....) . They only care if you say this to others. Mods do encourage informational, educational and constructive debates, not some arguments that saying each others are idiots. Forget it if you disagree them, just IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Some folks would do well to read what our friend from the far east is saying. In that realm to show respect to others is the order of the day...whether one feels that the other DESERVES the respect or does NOT, is not the point, since it is shown nevertheless! If a few on this forum had that kind of upbringing, then there would be no shutdown this weekend anywhere ON this forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 To add to Gil's post, the right of free speech ONLY applies to you vs. the government and perhaps, arguably, the Federal Government. It does not apply anywhere else. You have no freedom in my home at all, other than to leave. You have no freedom, or right, to moan, cuss or preach in the local shopping mall. No one has the right to go to a public park and shout about anything with the expectation of being heard. The First Amendment reinforces your right to speak for or against the government, but not for or against any other person or thing. (Wouldn't I be a pistol as one of the Supremes?!) We are in the house of Klipsch here. There are lots of polite ways to to issue a biting retort, if one feels the overwhelming loutish need. However, we must remember to be polite and disagree like gentlemen, or withdraw from the "conversation". If a member truly does not know of what he speaks, it will show. Just look at me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Oh my, I find all this far too amusing but the last post troubles me. Freedom of speech is only applicable when used to berate the Federal govt? I have no right to cuss in a shopping mall? What?! This idea is so problematic I will refrain from espousing every thought I have on the topic. Suffice it to say those who accept or propose limitations on their freedoms and constitutionally provided rights deserve neither. We have so strayed from what our forefathers preached, we shall soon find ourselves wondering what the hell happened and question how we became mere cogs in the machine; all in the name of being politically correct. The intolerant are now tolerated. Frankly, and why no one has mentioned this I do not know, it would not, and does not, cost much money to set up a server and bulletin board. Perhaps I will put one up for Klipsch afficionados who feel the need to occasionally discuss issues other than audio and perhaps a special section for those who want to occasionally hurl barbs and insults. Should get quite a bit of use because despite the protests to the contrary, every one of the threads on this board where insults have occurred have a higher level of views than anything else; if only we could be honest with ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 The simple reality is that freedom of speech only extends as far as public property. If you wish to scream at the top of your lungs on a street corner, you're more than welcome. And if you are arrested by a local sherriff who thinks you're drunk, you can sue the local police department - and probably win, if you get a good lawyer. When you are on private property, you are bound by the owner's rules. You can't go into Wal-Mart and scream at the top of your lungs, even if it's to tell them how much you love their store. They will politely but firmly ask you to leave - and they will be well within their rights to do so. The rights of the individual extend only so far as the rights of another individual. If your screaming like a madman in Wal-Mart negatively affects their attempts to do business, you are infringing on their rights, and are no longer protected by the Constitution. Same situation here at the Klipsch forii. Your right to speak your mind ends at Klipsch's right to maintain a good public image (which does not include people slinging mud at one another on Klipsch's website) - They are well within their rights to tell you that calling someone a *** **** ******* ******* is not beneficial to their image, and is therefore forbidden on their private property, namely this forum. For those who can't handle the above, I suggest you register yourself an EZboard, where you can talk all the smack you want and no one will infringe upon it, as long as you do not violate legal copyrights or libel laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Our system is one of ordered liberty, i.e., I cannot take as much liberty as I like and deprive you of your liberty in doing so. This forum belongs to Klipsch, accordingly Klipsch has responsibilities and RIGHTS. If Klipsch elects to pull the plug on the entire forum permanently, no ones' First Amendment rights will be infringed. Klipsch is under no obligation to provide this forum. Klipsch can ban anyone as long as the banning is not discriminatory under the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The bottom line is that it is their playground. The other side of the coin is that you do not have to buy their speakers (fat chance!) or speak kindly of the company or participate in the forum. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Guys, Haven't not wanted to start a full-fledged conversation on my rights as a citizen, I did not go into the responsibilities associated with ones rights. Certainly the owner of private property has the right to choose to ask me to leave, voluntarily or forcefully, if my exercise of free speech or choice of language offends them or breaks 'their' rules. I still "have" that right nonetheless. If in my use of free speech I also must stay within the confines of other laws ie. I can not provoke a riot. Language is ever changing, the meaning or use of words can alternately offend or motivate, and we are forever leveraging euphanisms to encourage polite speach. I have heard it here repeatedly - 'don't be rude.' Guidelines have stated 'if you wouldn't say it to your mother...' The fact is everyone has a different sensitivity level, a different background, a different sense of morality, and a different sense of humor. Something said to one may not raise an eyelash; for another, the same thing may result in attempted murder. My mother has introduced me as her son, "the a$$hole", after I muttered "oh, f()ck" through a school PA system when there was a momentary problem. I would certainly feel comfortable telling my mom she was 'dumb as a bag of $hit on a ceiling fan' depending on the circumstance. She would laugh her a$$ off at it if she had just said or done something dumb. Why? Because my mother has a sense of humor. She doesn't employ euphanisms. She speaks her mind and doesn't hold back. Now, "I" would probably take offense if 'you' said that to my mother and it could facilitate a 'whooping.' It seems to me Germany was a very polite place too at one point in history; just before they decided certain people couldn't be tolerated. The parallels exist today and are frightening. Think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Well said John... but, since this IS an audio Forum... I just can't see you as one of the "Supremes" even in your finest do-whap do! But I can see "Here come da judge" in your supremely worded post appearances. On the other hand... are four fingers and a thumb in the eyes of the beholders of sub-Bose prose. Klipsch rules... and your conscientious presence on this Forum (along with your conscientious detractors) is a reason why. -HornEd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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