thebes Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Ok, as some of you may know I am new to this lp and turntable stuff after about 30 years away from it. Interesting so far, but one thing is driving me crazy, it's that snap crackle, pop I get on every friggin record. Now the TT is s decent but not audiophile and it does have a really good Shure cartridige and appears to be adjusted properly for tracking etc. I've wiped down several of the 25 or so lp's I have with a mixture of filtered water, dentured alcohol and a few drops of kitchen soap, but still with the noise. So what is this all about: A) Dirty Records worn out records C) worn out needle D) All of the above. If D then how the hell do I determine what is what and what can be eliminated. Would lightening up the tracking help, etc. (By the way I am not talking about skipping, rumble etc. just the rice krispies thing-none of these lps by the way has a serious skip on them) By the way my initial impression is that classical music goes very well with vinyl, much more rounded/liquid although on most of them it seems I'm sitting a few seats farther back in the theater than I'm used to. On rock/pop the message is more mixed, some I like on lp's but most of it would be better played with cds. I have only one very losely definined "jazz" album Benny Goodman at Carnegie Hall so I can't make any statements about jazz as yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Thebes if you are really going to get into vintage vinyl, you will need to invest in some type of cleaning device. It can be as simple as LeoK's (search the forum) or as expensive as a VPI 16.5 (which I recently purchased used). Some pops are permanent but many if not most can be fixed with a really good cleaning with your solution and a rinse with distilled water. Much has been written here on the forum about record washing. Everything I know about it besides a Discwasher and Zerostat I learned here. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Even clean looking LPs will sound much better if properly cleaned. I use the Spin Clean Record Washer available from http://www.garage-a-records.com for $59.00 with great results. Not as convenient as the motorised devices but likely as effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Sometimes the records can just be worn out. A lot of older rock records can be worn out or weren't taken care of. The best investment I ever made was the cheapest Nitty Gritty record cleaner I could get. Still around $200.00 and cleaning records is a pain. But once you clean one, it will stay clean for a lot of plays. I also always use those plastic and rice paper record sleeves after a good Nitty Gritty cleaning. But there are some records that, even after a good cleaning, still sound like crap. Worn out or bad quality or whatever. I've had way more good ones than bad though. The Nitty Gritty fixes most of them. I'm be scared of Denatured alcohol and vinyl. That stuff seems wicked. Maybe it's fine? Did somebody suggest that to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Think you really need to evaluate your fondness and willingness to commit to the analog LP and TT. I love LP's and I'm willing to accept a fair ammount of surface noise on an very rare LP. What I hate is when a track skips and hangs. For me, it's a real trade off on the envolvement in play back as to the rarity, cost and condition of the vinyl. Often times I'm willing to accept a quality reissue LP or the CD if I deem the vinyl cost is too high. Early reissues are commanding high prices these days. Seek out thrift shops, but know the releases associated with the label on the LP or cover. If you are trully commited to purchasing old LP's, a record cleaning machine is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Thebes, Gary can give you great advice about finding cheap but good records at libraries and thrift shops. If the answers above don't answer all your questions, give me a call or e-mail me -- maybe we can listen to a few over here and see how bad they are. TT setup needs to be as good as possible, i.e., attention to leveling, tracking and anti-skating force, alignment, VTA, azimuth, etc. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Why not purchase a new, freshly pressed album to establish a baseline for comparison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 ---------------- On 9/23/2004 10:42:11 PM bkrop wrote: Why not purchase a new, freshly pressed album to establish a baseline for comparison? ---------------- There are varing sonic differences between the different releases. It really be decided as to whether one wants to be a COLLECTOR or simply buy a good reissue of a sought after release. Really buyer driven. Know that some releases are available on LP only. CD can be cost effective is some casess. Commitment to the orignal format is key. Bottom line: I have some very rare LP's that have snap, crackle and pop's, but I truly enjoy them. I'm able to groove with them beyond the surface noise!! I'm from the mid 60's generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 Some of the snap, crackle and pop you hear when playing vinyl may be the result of a build up of static electricity and the discharge of the same. Or so I am led to believe. Perhaps this particular phenomenom could be eliminated or reduced by playing the vinyl in a slightly damp environment? Out of interest, 90% of my record collection is virtually pop and crackle free. In saying that, I have only purchased the highest quality pressings over the years, and I have been really lucky when buying second hand records. So I haven't needed to go throught the rigmoral of trying to clean my collection. So thebes, if your records are valuable to you, have you considered getting them professionally cleaned? This may be a more satisfying solution than trying to do this yourself. Also check out garage-a-records.com/ and their 'spin-clean record washing system' the details of which were posted by lynnm on 19th September. It looks good and is inexpensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 And just to make matters worse.... Poor production protocols can actually cause brand new records to be produced with snap crackle and pop built in. I have a number of albums I bought brand new and still sealed that, when opened and played for the first time incorporated all the above noise. I should add that this is not all that common but it does happen. Conservely I have records from the 1950's that have been played innumerable times with virtually no extraneous noises. Luck of the draw really. That you have 15 records and all play with said noise is suspicious however. I wonder if you have the VTA set a little too high and that is exacerbating the problem.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 And that SHURE is a really unforgiving bi!ch of a cartidge too. Never did like those things and their 1 gram tracking weight--if you get something that doesn't flop around in the groove so much the noise will not be so prominent. (before anyone flames me, this is an attempt at humor, as most of you know I use cartidges that track at ASTRONOMICAL weights when compared with the SHURE). Since my record collection is 75% pre-1970 and about 2/3 MONO, I have found that using a CONICAL stylus and a preamp with a MONO switch has made some records that had annoying noise when played with a eliptical stylus play remarkably clean. And you will need a static brush too . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 Allan is correct, if your tracking weight is set for about half a pound, it won't let a little crud on the surface stop it. If you don't have a mono switch and want to play a mono record, you can take both of the RCA cords coming from out of your player, feed them into a Y-cord, then into another Y-cord turned around the opposite way so that it's back to two wires, then into your phono inputs. That will sum the signal and cancel out considerable noise. But it's only good for mono. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 Thebes, I'd add option E: nature of the beast as a potential answer to your question. If you TT types, (for whom I have no small admiration) can get nirvana results out of LP, then more power to you. One audiophile article/post I read on this forum (can't find it today) suggested that audiophile ears (which are better than my redneck ears) are capable of tuning out the snap crackles and pops. In addition to that, since they know the way the music is "supposed" to sound, they can also fill in for the defiencies of the setup.... ie. no bass or loudness contour on their audiophile gear to compensate for a poor recording or room deficiencies. My LP purhases droped to zero in 1984 when I acquired a Yamaha CD player. Though I've been curious about what I might be missing after finding the Klipsch forum, my curiosity hasn't exceeded my delight at NOT hearing the snap crackle pop of LP's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 Just a thought, thebes: You're not spinning vinyl while eating breakfast, are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 Record Cleaning NEVER USE Isopropyl or Denatured Alcohol !!!!!!!!!!!!! They are not very refined and have oils & other contaminants in them that are useful for 'rubbing' and cleaning certain things, but not vinyl records! It's not distilled to a purity that is consumable. It does not contain grain alcohol. Use a highly refined alcohol like Smirnoff Silver. Actually any high quality 100 proof vodka will do. Remember, the main difference between cheaper booze & the good stuff is how & how many times it's been distilled. Vodka like Smirnoff & Absolut are distilled 3 times. They are very pure. Do not dilute them, especially with tap water (also plenty of contaminants. So likewise on washing records with tap water. Dish washing detergents and other soaps should also not be used. Its very difficult to remove, tending to adhere to the record surfaces. I just put the Smirnoff in the Discwasher bottle & label it as such so it doesn't get confused with anything else. I apply it to the Discwasher brush. More severe cases may require putting some additional amount directly on the record. Additional brush pressure may need to be applied. And I do this in both directions with the final sweep cleaning the same direction as the pickup stylus when playing. I don't know if you can use this in a record cleaning machine such as the VPI. Let the record dry thoroughly (half an hour should be adequate but obviously this depends on your environment. Hot & dry will be faster than a cool humid day without A/C for instance). Even though the evaporation rate is reasonably high (this is what actually 'lifts' the debris from the groove) you want to make sure the disc is completely dry before applying a lubricant to replace the natural lubricants in the vinyl that have been destroyed by the alchohol. This is the only caveat but it works very well for getting dirty grooves thoroughly cleaned. I use GrooveGlide. When applied PROPERLY, this stuff works great. Follow the directions. A little goes a long way. Do not spray directly on the record. You only need a second of spray on the application pads. Buff in both directions (including the label). Eliminates static too. Reduces distortion. Reduces groove (running) noise. Improves transient response. I also use Stylast cleaner on the stylus & Stylast lubricant on the stylus tip/cantilever/fulcrum. Ive also found that a less than perfect TT/arm/pickup setup (ie: pickup alignment) can increase noise problems. After all is said and done, all this vinyl ya ya reminds me of how many times I returned records because of poor surfaces causing snaps & pops. Think of it folks, of the entire analog LP recording, manufacturing and playback process..dragging a near microscopic stone hanging on the end of miniature cantilever with some magnets or coils on the other end wiggling back and forth and up and down in a pressed plastic microgroove at 7 per second!!! Its a wonder we get anything even close to resembling high fidelity at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 ---------------- On 9/23/2004 9:11:35 PM thebes wrote: Ok, as some of you may know I am new to this lp and turntable stuff after about 30 years away from it. Interesting so far, but one thing is driving me crazy, it's that snap crackle, pop I get on every friggin record. Now the TT is s decent but not audiophile and it does have a really good Shure cartridige and appears to be adjusted properly for tracking etc. I've wiped down several of the 25 or so lp's I have with a mixture of filtered water, dentured alcohol and a few drops of kitchen soap, but still with the noise. So what is this all about: A) Dirty Records worn out records C) worn out needle D) All of the above. If D then how the hell do I determine what is what and what can be eliminated. Would lightening up the tracking help, etc. (By the way I am not talking about skipping, rumble etc. just the rice krispies thing-none of these lps by the way has a serious skip on them) By the way my initial impression is that classical music goes very well with vinyl, much more rounded/liquid although on most of them it seems I'm sitting a few seats farther back in the theater than I'm used to. On rock/pop the message is more mixed, some I like on lp's but most of it would be better played with cds. I have only one very losely definined "jazz" album Benny Goodman at Carnegie Hall so I can't make any statements about jazz as yet. ---------------- thebes, Funny you should mention Snap, Crackle, Pop. Last night I put on Sting's "Brand New Day" SACD and could definitely hear what sounded like purposely inserted SC&P between some of the tracks. I've also read that other artists (or their recording engineers) have added similar noise in the recording process. Supposedly it can add "credibility" to a recording. Seems kinda weird to me. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 I'd always heard that alchohol of any kind can attack the vinyl and keep it from "springing back" after it's been played. Is this yet another "old audiophiles' tale?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 ---------------- On 9/24/2004 9:37:04 AM CaptnBob wrote: I'd always heard that alchohol of any kind can attack the vinyl and keep it from "springing back" after it's been played. Is this yet another "old audiophiles' tale?" ---------------- It sure keeps me from springing back after I've played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomac Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 Thebes, If all the cleaning fails to eliminate the Rice Crispy Effect, place the LP in a stack labeled play only while fire going. Save those records for cool nights and you wont know if its the fire or the record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 ---------------- On 9/24/2004 9:48:38 AM scott0527 wrote: ---------------- On 9/24/2004 9:37:04 AM CaptnBob wrote: I'd always heard that alchohol of any kind can attack the vinyl and keep it from "springing back" after it's been played. Is this yet another "old audiophiles' tale?" ---------------- Alcohol can remove some of the vinyl's "natural lubricants". Spirits like 100 proof Smirnoff Silver are just about ideal in alcohol content to not damage the vinyl and still strong enough to clean most stubborn debris from the surface, and purified enough to not leave contamination enough behind. That's one of the reasons I use GruvGlide after the record is completely dry. GruvGlide (sorry, I spelled it wrong in previous post), when applied PROPERLY, leaves a very uniform layer of dry lubricant only few molecules thick over the surfaces. This stuff was originally developed by a NASA aerospace engineer. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the automotive product "Rain-X" for windshields and windows may be the same stuff. Sure smells the same and feels the same between your fingers. And it too supposedly applies a one molecule layer coating when applied PROPERLY. GruvGlide is considered a "cleaner" but if your vinyl is exceptionally dirty it really needs to be cleaned with a record cleaning machine or the Smirnoff Silver method. I've used this stuff for over 20 years. I've marked the records that have been treated (they only need one treatment). In some instances I have multiple copies of high quality recordings, one treated, another untreated so I've had a reference. I have experienced no deterimental effects of any kind. And those of you who have visited my place have listened to LP's treated with it. No one has had any complaints. Some people say they have experienced problems and I suspect it's because they didn't apply it properly or applied too much. This is not a product where "if a little is good, more is better". I've always been skeptical of record treatments of any kind but when pioneering audiophile label direct-to-disc Sheffield Lab started recommending it I jumped on the band wagon. http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/c.ACCT106601/sc.9/category.-109/it.A/id.766/.f http://www.gruvglide.com/faqs.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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