Rating the Heritage Line

[Spkrdctr]

Could the owners of the Heritage speakers who have listened to the different models rate each speaker type for its bass output? For example,

Best (loudest and lowest bass) Cornwall

next best LaScala

and so on.

Thank you for your input.

[SCOOTERDOG]

I'll Bite,

1. Khorn- Outstanding low bass outbut down to 33hz, well defind, tight and

fast powerful bass.

Midrange exceptionaly smooth with great output and depth. Highly efficient

horn loaded tweeter. 104db 1w 1m high sensitivity, wide dynamic range, low

distortion,smooth frequency response. Proper placement is a must. Over the

years crossovers have changed and many mods are also available.

2. La Scala -Extremely fast bass response down to 45-50hz, tight and smooth.

No Corner required but if you have them use them. Toe them in slightly.

Evereything else is the same as the Khorn

3. Belle- Same as La Scala except sensitivity is 103db 1w 1 m, midrange horn

is shorter and similar to the cornwall

4. Cornwall- outstanding low bass down to 38hz only surpassed by the Khorn.

sensitivity 98.5db 1w 1m. Midrange driver is the same as above but the

actual horn differs. Smooth midrange not quite as defind as the Khorn and

La Scala IMO. Horn tweeter is the same as Khorn & La Scala and Belle

Hope that helps

scooter

[boomer9911]

1

[Frzninvt]

I think Scooter pretty much summed it up.

[Colin]

the dog did get the bone, except the Corwnall does NOT have the same mid-range lens. It is smaller than the LS, Belles and Khorn:

I have heard the Chorus IIs, Cornwalls, LaScalas and Khorns on the same equipment and the same music selections in the same living room in the last two years. The big old horns of Klipsch's Heritage series "do sound different from just about any other line of speakers, from Klipsch or from anyone else." But that difference is a matter of taste. One man's wine is another's vinegar.

Although the tone and depth of the bass response changes with progression up the Heritage line, four things remain constant: the frequency response in a variety of rooms becomes wider and/or flatter; the already realistic sounding mid-range gets smoother and easier to listen to; the greater dynamics improve quickness, attack and realism; the increased efficiency reveals more defects of the recording and the front-end components.

My own measurements show that except for two things, the Khorns are indeed admirably flat. Except for a dip at 300 to500-Hz, and a bounce from 80 to 160-Hz, they are within b2bdB from a very pleasing 31.5 to 12.5-kHz. In other words: quite flat within the audible music-critic range!

No so with the Cornwalls. With a bump from 125 to 63Hz, and again at 5-kHz (room reflections) the flattest range on the Cornwalls was from 500 to 4-kHz and within 4-dB. The Cornwalls also extend down to 31.5Hz and up to 10-kHz.

"The La Scala," Ray Garrison said, "is MUCH rougher (+/- 5dB from 100Hz to 10kHz). The Belle has a fairly smooth curve, but it has a smoothly falling output from 150Hz to 6kHz, totaling a drop of almost 10dB from bass to treble."

Here is where the difference in front-end equipment, music tastes and the

listening room will make some very big differences: While the gorgeous looking Belle has the smoother overall frequency response, she simply does not dig as deep as the classic Klipsch corner Khorns. Though the Khorns are deep, they do require dual corners, a rectangular room and quality front-end equipment. Their bass is light, airy, very natural, but lean sounding. Unless you hear a lot of acoustic bass, then you realize the accuracy of the Khorn bass. The Khorn soundstage is wide certainly, but it is also shallow. For audio purists seeking the illusion of 3D sonic holographic image, these loudspeakers can not be pulled 3-4 feet out from the side and front walls (as all other loudspeakers must be).

In some ways, super-sensitive walnut-oiled Cornwall 1s, with B2 crossovers, were the most enjoyable big ole horns I owned (for 2 decades); and the most problematic. Though they do have to be in the corners, they dont have quite the wide, clear and effortless sound of the larger mid-range lens on the LaScala, Bell and Khorn models. Yet the mid-bass bump at 63 to 125Hz is actually quite nice, leading me to feel that these big babies are better suited for rock n roll.

The half and half Corn-scala of course might be the best solution: the LaScala top end with the Cornwall bottom

[DrWho]

I think I would put the cornwall as #2 as far as bass response goes. This is based on what I've read and the posted specs...I have not had the opportunity to hear the lascala/belle.

I might even put the cornwall above the khorn because it's bass is a lot thicker and more powerful sounding I think. At Artto's place, het gets good response down to 19Hz with his khorns thanks to the acoustics of his room. I just think the cornwall has a slightly larger sound to the bass...which of course I would attribute to the difference between horn loaded and direct radiator. The khorn certainly is lower distortion, but I personally think I'd rather rock it out with a pair of cornwalls than a pair of khorns. Particular tastes in music and listening habits will of course determine which you feel has the better bass.

With the cornwall comes the chorus and forte speakers which all sound very similar. Of the group, the forte digs down the lowest...in the same order it's 38Hz, 39Hz, and 32Hz.

The heresy II of course would be at the bottom of the list.

[Marvel]

----------------

On 3/26/2005 2:24:32 PM DrWho wrote:

The heresy II of course would be at the bottom of the list.

----------------

Have you listened to these in a proper room or are you just going by the specs?

Marvel

[Daddy Dee]

Colin,

Excellent review. Thanks.

[edwinr]

Thanks for your insight, colin. The Klpschorns do offer a wonderful sound. But I agree with some others, that they sound better in a larger room. In smaller rooms, I've found the Klipschorn to be a little constricted, tending to a slight bass boom around 60 to 80 hz (but that's very room dependant of course). I rate the La Scala next. It's a fine sounding loudspeaker, and next to the Belle, offers near Klipschorn sound without the requirement for good corners. I do have a soft spot for the Heresy, though. For such a relatively compact package, the Heresy can dig deep into the music.

The current Heritage range, while it's not flavour of the month, is still extremely competitive with other products. It's a bit of a shock to hear other speakers in the Heresy's price range, thinking they sound really good, then coming back to the Heresy. I still can't come to grips with that. Surely technology and CAD has progressed the art of loudspeaker design to the extent that modern designs should blow the Heresy away?

[DrWho]

----------------

On 3/26/2005 4:54:22 PM Marvel wrote:

----------------

On 3/26/2005 2:24:32 PM DrWho wrote:

The heresy II of course would be at the bottom of the list.

----------------

Have you listened to these in a proper room or are you just going by the specs?

Marvel

----------------

Yep. I've got colterphoto's heresies right here and plugged them in when I got them home (no worries, he said i could!) and I got to A/B them right next to my chorus II's. When I picked up the CII's from his place, I got to A/B them with his cornwalls. Specwise they heresy's are good to 53Hz, but they seem to drop rather fast after 80Hz, but I listen to a lot of music with 30Hz material.

BTW, the original intent of this post was a comparison of bass response of the heritage speakers...seems everyone jumped on the which speaker is better bandwagon (nothing wrong with that I suppose). I just didn't want to leave Spkrdctr in the dust.

[mungkiman]

Big rooms: Klipschorns

Small rooms: Cornwalls

Outside: La Scalas

[colterphoto1]

Mung has it right. LS is very rough bass response, but is killer loud.

Khorn

Cornwall

LS

Belle

Heresy

Michael

[SCOOTERDOG]

Sorry,

But I must disagree with the Rough bass response of the La Scala. I guess if you are looking at a graph then maybe otherwise like I said, I disagree.Yes the La Scala can play loud but so can the Khorns considering they share so much with each other. Also sounding best outside, yes the do sound good outside but very good indoors in a proper sized room. Poor La Scala always someone willing to spank them

[garymd]

Colin,

Great post but I disagree regarding the placement of cornwalls. I've owned mine for 25 years (my room is 13 x 24) and have found the best placement is on the long wall, about 6 feet from the corners, slightly toed in. No question you'll get more bass if you jam them in a corner but with corns, who needs it! The soundstage improves immensely when you pull them away from the corners.

I currently own Khorns, Cornwalls and Heresys, have had belles here but only heard lascalas in a store. Khorns are my favorite with cornwalls coming in second. There are times when I feel the corns excel over the Khorns, depending on the music. They all have their strengths and weaknesses depending upon the room and personal preference. I really enjoy having both the Khorns and Cornwalls at my disposal. You can't go wrong either way.

[colterphoto1]

Scooter replied to my post with "But I must disagree with the Rough bass response of the La Scala. I guess if you are looking at a graph then maybe otherwise like I said, I disagree."

Please tell me how the average listening room will smooth that response curve and I'll stand corrected. Otherwise, lets please accept the fact that real world listening pretty closely mirrors accurate test results. That is why we normally accept the testing methodologies used by manufacturers of audio gear. They are not ideal, but are fairly accurate predictors of real-world experiences.

Michael

[SCOOTERDOG]

If we all relied on what something sounds like soley on response curves, graphs etc. we would be in trouble. Room acoustics will always play a major role in the sound we end with. In fact there has been much discussion on our beloved Klipsch not having the best response curves compared to other speakers. I rely on what I hear not what a piece of paper says.

I will always discount to a certain degree what a graph tells me when it comes to speaker response. Electronics are different and I do look close at rated specs and responses because room acoustics have little bearing on how they perform.

"That is why we normally accept the testing methodologies used by manufacturers of audio gear. They are not ideal, but are fairly accurate predictors of real-world experiences."

I am quite surprised you would make the statement you did. I disagree, speakers response curves provided by manufactures are produced in anechoic chambers and/or controlled environments, not our listing rooms; they are not real-world experiences as you say.

You may enjoy the debate over at the avs forum on exactly what you are stating.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=521904

Colter, I respect many many of your threads so please don't take this wrong. I disagree with you on this subject but I have also agreed with many you have made on our board.

Cheers

Scooter

[Colin]

I meant that to acheive the 3D sonic holograph, all pseakersd must be 3-4 feet away from front and side walls. The knorns can't.

Regardless of the accuracy of aneochic responses, they are the only way to objectively discuss differences in response in a one-dimensional forum.

[colterphoto1]

Thanks, Scooter. Please consider this rambling for a moment.

What we're disagreeing on is the use of anechoic test results as predictors of real world results in the area of frequency response, right (LS in particular). I agree that the room acoustics will change, sometimes drastically, the sound of any loudspeaker. However, absent any particular engineering to smooth the very steep dips and peaks in the LS cabinet, how can any 'normal listening room' effectively smooth this very rough response curve? That is my question. Not theoretical and I do not have empirical evidence to back up my point, but do you understand what I am saying?

For instance, lets take Khorn, LS, and Cornwall and put them in the SAME ROOM, same acoustics, same everything. Now respond to what the poster asks- rate the speakers in terms of bass response. Barring some miraculous accident that would straighten out the responce of the LS, more so than any of the other cabinets, the list would most probably be Khorn, Corn, LS in that order. I think it is generally accepted that the cabinet dimensions used to create the Belle place is even further down the line than the LS.

Now are we closer?

Michael

[Colin]

Fortunately we do all have the same roonm, it is the anechoic chamber and we can visually compare the repsonse. This chart chows the bump I described in the Cornwall.

The second one shows the Belle tipped up bass and upper end compared to the others, while the Khorn is clearly deeper.

[Colin]

Khorn Belle and LS specs