Are you an apologetic audiophile?

[maxg]

There is a funny thing about this hobby, certainly as it appears on-line. I don't quite know how to describe it so I have called it the apologetc audiophile.

Over the last few weeks I have broadened my on-line forum membership and joined a few new ones. On these new forums, as here, there is more of an emphasis on how little an individual has gotten away with spending rather than on how fabulous his (or her) sonic return might be.

It does rather make me wonder if this makes audiophilia unique.

Further, there is a huge amount of what can only be refered to as total denial over being an audiophile. It contains within it a partially hidden disdain for the possibility that you are in it for the equipment rather than for the music. This is often caveated with "of course there is nothing wrong with that persay" but that really reads - "what a nutter."

How many times do you read in a post - well I am a music lover - not an audiophile really.

How much water can that arguement really hold? My father is a music lover - he listens to Classic FM radio almost all day - on crappy radios. He does not post on any forum that discusses systems and no amount of prompting from me is going to make him invest in a decent system. That is a music lover - I would venture to suggest that if you are reading this - then you are an audiophile - like it or not.

Compare audiophilia to any other hobby and you get a very interesting picture.

I don't know - take model train lovers. They spend countless hours and countless sums building ever more realistic setups. There is no apologizing or hiding the sums and time they have spent. They invest their hours and dollars and achieve their result.The more of either (or both) you spend - the better the result.

The same could apply to a stamp collector. Either spend big money on rare stamps - or big time hunting flea markets for a bargain - the end result is the same - more of either/both - better result.

Want to extend the model even further - car racing. An old friend once said to me - "How fast you want to go and how much you want to spend are actually the same question." No hiding it. Time and money win the day - every day.

When it comes to audiophilia, however, things are perceived a bit differently. I suppose I am as guilty of it as the next man. There is a perceived nobility in spending time fixing your system to get the best sound out of it alongside a perceived inverse snobbery about spending money. Is there really a difference between the 2. Is your time of no value - or lesser value than your dollars?

We sit at our keyboards and converse on the subject of our audio systems, changes we might make, purchases we are considering and so on. We attempt to describe the results and we judge on the basis of what exactly? The flowing prose of the writer? Our experience of similar systems? The latter might be fairer but then how many of us hold back from passing judgement on a system of which we really have no experience?

So - you spend $x on your system. $x is 5 times more than me - therefore you are an idiot. Your sonic rate of return is crap compared to mine. Is this really the defining factor in our hobby the hobby we often deny having?

Of course that denial really helps. I can belittle the lunacy of someone who has spend hundreds of thousands on his system (without having experienced his sound of course) whilst claiming that I am some kind of semi-audiophile that has created amazing sound for a mere $y. For said loony it is obviously no longer about the music - it must be about the equipment - ha ha.

At the same time - I can snear comfortably at those that have bought ready systems from Sony, Aiwa and especially Bose. That is not good sound - only I have achieved good sound for the right investment. They don't care about the music either - if they did they would have spend as much as me - or as wisely as me. Theirs is a mere fashion statement or a yielding to the pressures of WAF so we know who wears the trousers in their house!!

Equally - there is little or no perceived nobility in buying new other than some lip-service to supporting a given company (Klipsch on this forum - and ocasionally Mark or Craig). Smart people buy used - dummies spend the money on new kit. Of course - no-one is saying that the used market - with its lower prices in not a godsend for many and a source of bargains for all - but does it really carry nobility with it?

I have seen reactions all over the net to the ACA video. Almost entirely I see comments like "Makes me feel normal", or, "Look what those loonies have spent."

Normal? Is that the aim of audiophilia? Do I need to pass an police line up to stay in the community. Does audiophilia show? Why the need to be normal? Odd, don't you think?

Ferrari spends so many million dollars to make a forumla one car go round a lap one tenth of a second faster than it did last year - and no-one bats an eyelid. An audiophile spends $10,000 for a difficult to measure improvement in his sound but unless that money was on a new set of speakers he's a crazy audiophile. Of course - even if he spend that money even on speakers that I dont happen to like - the same conclusion can be drawn. Hell - if he spent it on speakers I dont know from a make I dont know (or heard once at a show and they didn't play nicely to my ears) the same applies.

I have spent as much money as I can afford to get as good a sound as I can get. I like to think I have spent wisely. If I had more to spend I would expect to get better sound for my investment. As it is me that is paying and me that listens to that system am I not the only one that can judge the result and the return on my investment? Can another judge who has not even heard the result? I think not - but we all do.....

From now on I am going to try to stop apologising for being an audiophile. How about you?

[Speedball]

Max,

I enjoy reading your posts! Now if I could only type as fast..........

[lwhaples]

Max,

I enjoy reading your posts! Now if I could only type as fast..........

Ditto!

Larry

[edwinr]

I like music. I love my hi-fi. I fear my wife...

[maxg]

Max,

I enjoy reading your posts! Now if I could only type as fast..........

Ditto!

Larry

[] Mavis Beacon Typing tutor from way back in the day - wonder if it still exists. Took 2 days to get to 60 wpm or thereabouts. Back when I was working for Price Waterhouse I was faster on the keyboard than any of the secretaries in the office. No idea what my actual speed is now - probably slightly better than that.

[colterphoto1]

I'm proud of being an 'audiophile', but equally proud of what I've accomplished on somewhat limited budget. At 110 wpm I can say that this hobby has not only increase my typing speed, but circle of friends and I've got a new GIG to boot! All very well said- Rock on Max! I like the comparisons to other hobbies.

But can I be considered an 'audiophile' if I still play CD's, use a receiver, and have modest input source equipment? Where is the line?

Michael

[whell]

I'm not rich or insecure enough to be an audiophile. I'll just have to settle for enjoying the music.

I've seen some of the same posts from some of these forums where these characters are yapping about how great their systems are. Then 6 months goes by and I see a subsequent post about how they were bitten by the upgrade bug, and they replaced their XXXXX amp/preamp/speakers/whatever, and found the new set up so much more resolving/musical/revealing/etc..

Spare me!

[veloceleste]

.

[maxg]

Oh super - almost noone got the point - not quite the writer I thought I was.

You can be an audiophile with $500 invested and a lot of time and effort.

You can have spent $250,000 on an audio system and not be an audiophile.

Neither of these are the point. The point is that on this forum, and others, if you are an audiophile and have spent a considerable sum of money on your setup (say $40,000) you are considered somehow almost an inferior being than someone who has spent, say $2,000 with a lot of time and effort. That this is the case, on an on-line forum where we will presume no-one else has heard the setup is strange to me, as an unapologetic audiophile.

Or to put it another way (to be quite clear) you really can be a music loving audiophile and have spent a huge sum ($250,000 from the above) on your system. It does not mean you value the music less, nor the equipment more, in the serving of that musical experience, other than by its capital value.

[Audible Nectar]

I have no problem admitting/stating that I am an "audiophile" or "audio enthusiast". I appreciate the gear as much as I appreciate the sound that comes out of it.

But there are limits.

While I know full well that I could "improve/make more accurate" certain aspects of my system through gear upgrades, I have focused on making my current setups the best they can be without replacement. I feel there is a certain "romance" to the vintage Mac and Klipsch, and have spent more time improving the gear that I have - rather than swap/upgrade it out. I have seen many here swap out/sell off vintage Macs, while my core 2 channel system is the same as it has been for over three years (MC-30/MX-110/Belle Klipsch). I think I have gained as much enjoyment through the journey of refurbishing as many do through actual hardware upgrades. Still, it's upgrading for the purpose of better sound - which qualifies me to be an "audiophile", I suppose - and the possession of an extra pair of MC-30s wouldn't be a clue, huh[]

As for "nobody caring about this stuff but enthusiasts".....well, you might have a point there, but the "pool of those who could be audiophiles/enthusiasts" is bigger than you think. Take those in my friendly circle here at home: My Klipsch have sold several here INSTANTLY as to the value of a good music reproduction system - enough that I sourced various Heritage Klipsch for them. Gears associated with these range from an older Nakamichi receiver to a Peach/VRD combo to things in between - so I NEVER say this is strictly "for us". If no one is showing/presenting such gears in the marketplace, how can anyone become addicted? I can also honestly say that it was MY SYSTEM that got them hooked: ALL made the comment "why doesn't anyone in this town sell systems that sound like THAT!"

Many of these friends are "music enthusiasts" whom I've seen numerous concerts and festivals with. It was EASY to get 'em hooked. And while they aren't the "obsessive audiophile" types, they have taken advantage of my knowledge and used some of the "tweaker's greatest hits" from this forum: Crossover caps, for example - and simply selecting the right gears that will make the most of the Klipsch now in their homes.

It's not about saying "OOOOOOH, look at MY system" (oneupmanship) as much as it's about "hey, you want one of THESE? You can afford this" kind of thing. Spread the joy!

So, no, I don't apologize for being an audiophile or enthusiast. I've never had to tell the half dozen homes that I'm sorry yet, and nobody has asked to sell the speakers or ask for a refund. The biggest joy I get from doing this for others is the reason we do this in the first place: sharing the gift of MUSIC. Because Klipsch isn't an end in and of itself - it is only a means to an end - the faithful and pleasing reproduction of music. I've never had to tell any of my Klipsch addicted friends "I'm sorry" - only "You're welcome".

[anarchist]

Max,

Interesting read but... I think your premise is off. Audio is not unique nor are individuals who seek the highest value in their acquisitions regardless of cost.

I raced motocycles. I spent far less than my competitors. I spent it effectively however and was not at a competitive disadvantage. I was justifiably proud and I did laugh at people who spent 10x as much and couldn't get off the starting grid.

I work on my home and do remodeling. I am far happier to spend $2000 on wood floors and install them myself than pay a contractor to do so. I smile dismissively at my friends who spent $10K on wood floors and know the contactor used poor quality materials.

The list can go on and on with examples which show the exact same behaviors related to spending money and the return.

As regards your conclusion about "apologetic audiophiles", people deny being audiophiles because:

1) most writers who cover audio equipment are ostentatious asses and we don't want to be like them

2) most men who feel compelled to label themselves as audiophiles are ostentatious asses and we don't like them

3) "audiophile" is easily mistaken as pedophile by the common man.

4) "audiophile" is easily mistaken as autoerotica by other common men.

In any case, options 1 through 4 are not pleasant associations.

[BillH2121]

I am somewhat hestitant to call myself an "audiophile" because I'm not sure that I have the experience or the discerning ear to make myself an authority on anything other than what pleases me. I listened to my Mac 2125 and C26 for almost 30 years before recently upgrading to newer equipment. I have not regularly visited the local audio stores to listen to different components by different companies and have little understanding of the technical aspect of this maddening hobby. I do have a couple of degrees in music and spent some 16 years as a professional musician. What I listen for and what I strive to obtain through equipment purchase is a reproduction of sound as I remember it while sitting in the orchestra or in a small jazz group or my early rock bands. The complicating matter in all of this for me, and I suspect most others, is that I have limited funds to buy the latest and greatest gear. Therefore, I buy used equipment, not because I believe it is necessarily the "smarter" buy, but because it allows me to obtain a piece of equipment that I might otherwise not be able to afford. I also believe that in many things, automobiles and audio equipment as example, there is a direct correlation between cost and quality and performance. I want to believe that the RF7s that I own and love sound and look as good as the B&W 802ds I heard recently - they don't. However, the difference between $1,500 and $12,000 is not unsubstantial and the sound produced by the RF7s is surprisingly good compared to the B&Ws at a fraction of the cost. If I had the money, I would own the B&Ws and I would not be embarrased to say that I thought the more expensive speaker sounds better than the RF7 and looks a million times better - I would not consider such a purchase conspicuous consumerism, I would consider it an attempt to capture the finest sound for what I could afford at that time. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being proud of a lower-cost system that represents the best one can do at a given time, but it is foolish to think in this hobby that more money doesn't produce greater results. Of course, there must be some point where additional spending produces negligible improvement, but I think in this hobby that number is pretty high.

[sheltie dave]

I happily fall into the skinflint discerning audiophile category, mainly out of necessity. If you can find good equipment you wanted back in the day for a song, and it will always provide at least a break even resale, why not?

Outside of the NOSValves VRDs and the JuicyMusic Blueberry, purchased new and probably never to stray from my stereo rack, most everything else has been found at a screaming deal. In the area between Kansas City, Chicago, and Memphis, you can routinely find Fortes, Cornwalls, Hereseys for $100 to $200 if you invest the time and energy to dig. Every week people are dumping stereo equipment to modernize, downsize, or move, and they want the old stuff to move pronto.

The most recent examples in St. Louis over the past month were a McIntosh MC275 tube amp that sold for $495, and a pristine set of Bozak Symphoniys that brought $60. An Eico HF-81 went for $20 last weekend at an estate sale, so my score of a Harman Kardon 930 and a set of gorgeous walnut Fortes for $170 looks...well, expensive.

Let me add another subcategory if I may, Max. Audiophile enthusiasts are people whose home is exploding with music. Most every room in the house seems to be dripping with things musical, possibly with albums, tapes, and CDs scattered, or music playing. Audiophile snobs have a music room, with most everything perfectly arranged, alphabetically arranged, price tags still hanging from equipment, and (most important)a blank stare if you ask which rendition of a recording is their favorite. An enthusiast will invite you into their home and regale you with shared exquisite music, while a snob will impress you with deliciously expensive equipment. One has a tendancy to fill your soul with muse, while the other can empty your wallet of money.

[woodsman]

In the end, it come's down to everyone spends money differently. Some are savers, and very frugal spenders. They get old and never really enjoy their money.

The way I look at this, we get one chance at this life. So do it the way you enjoy it.

Hobbies are funny, we get enjoyment out of them. It is what entertains us, and gets us through this sometimes cruel world.

I do woodworking as well for a hobby. I would guess that I have close to $20,000.00 invested in it all. But the entire home theater did not cost that, fairly close but not quite.

Don't make excuses for how you like to spend the money you work hard for.

Jeff

[Colin]

I am one of those reviewing assholes who are poud to be an audiphile - I do indeed care as much about the equipment as I do the movies and music:

It is easy to spot a tweaking audiophile. When they are not sifting the pages online at Enjoy the Music.com, they are often swapping out pieces of equipment and measuring things with hand-held meters. An audiophile is not merely someone that Dictionary.com says has "ardent interest in stereo or high-fidelity sound reproduction." An audiophile is someone who wants to do something about the flaws and deficiencies in their home entertainment system, whether it is about the music or the movies. A tweaking audiophile is someone who wants to make some or all of those improvements themselves. (This term derives from a caustic description applied to myself. As in the time when an annoyed salesman said, "what are you anyway, some sort of xxxing audiophile?" His expletive evolved in print to "frigging," which lead to "freaking" and then to "tweaking." And, there you have it. Lemonade, from lemons.)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[DrWho]

Ferrari spends so many million dollars to make a forumla one car go round a lap one tenth of a second faster than it did last year - and no-one bats an eyelid. An audiophile spends $10,000 for a difficult to measure improvement in his sound but unless that money was on a new set of speakers he's a crazy audiophile. Of course - even if he spend that money even on speakers that I dont happen to like - the same conclusion can be drawn. Hell - if he spent it on speakers I dont know from a make I dont know (or heard once at a show and they didn't play nicely to my ears) the same applies.

Two points I wanted to bring up in your analogy:

1) Ferrari is able to qualify the extra costs by proving an improvement.
2) Ferrari is paying very qualified trained engineers - there is no pseudo science involved

I firmly believe that if you gave any good audio engineer $200,000 to spend on a system, that they would come up with something vastly different than anything any stereotypical audiophile would contrive...but I also firmly believe that it will sound better too.

[Jay481985]

I enjoyed the read, thanks maxg

[Deang]

Well, I don't know about anyone else -- but I'm strictly in it for the gear.

[DrWho]

Well, I don't know about anyone else -- but I'm strictly in it for the gear.

me too [Y][]

[Jeff Matthews]

I agree with the post above that most everyone else could care less about my system or enthusiasm for music. It is all for me. From my perspective, I think it should impress, but it really doesn't - at least not to the extent I think it should. People will say "Wow, that sounds good! Want to go get some lunch?"

The thing about it for me is I like mostly to play music I can (a) either play to on drums, or ( be wowed by the amazing musicianship. I often think in amazement how good the musicians were. Kind of like the life I never had or what I might be if re-incarnated.