How will my system benefit from a tube amp?

[Tarheel]

I can't get into great detail on this subject right now, but if you get a chance, get ahold of a NOSvavled Scott intergrated amp, hook it up, take a listen, then ask yourself the same question again.....................................

You big tease....I know you got it[8]

[oldenough]

Here is my only foray into the world of tubes, but i can tell you this....i never enjoy music as much as when i listen thru it. Sorry it's probably not what others would call Hi-Fi but it can sound oh so sweet. If i had to choose only one piece to keep this would be it.

[mas]

mas

Folks tend to discount comments by folks who can not refer to their experiences. If you've owned tube equipment, and have pro's or con's about them....these type's of post are always intresting.

Most of yor post do not contain references to anything you have tried or done. You basiclly bash the current or past efforts of others with out trying to gain any insight from them.

I remain anxious to see your first DIY thread or some other audio enjoyment relevant thread. I'm not even sure you've own or have owned some heritage speakers. In which case, if you pay the shipping, I will be happy to loan you some, to start you on your journey.

If you re-read the intial question, perhaps you should have asked yourself what value you could have added to this thread, rather than throwning your broken glass on the roadway for others to sweep up.

Ignorance is bliss...or in your case, simply ignorance.

But hang on, I think I have a transformer that will fix that!

[Guest " "]

mas

Sure I can include some transformers, wires, and even a tube pre-amp. Unfortunately, I no longer have any extra tube amps to loan out. I do have some different tubes so you can try tube rolling in the tube equipment you could get access to.

[Spongeworthy]

mas

Sure I can include some transformers, wires, and even a tube pre-amp. Unfortunately, I no longer have any extra tube amps to loan out. I do have some different tubes so you can try tube rolling in the tube equipment you could get access to.

lol, nothing shakes fritz MAS, you better try a little harder to be insulting to him than you do everyone else.

[mas]

Then someone is going to have to convince me that transformer boy has something worth responding to.

[Trey Cannon]

In MHO, nothing.

You may loose lowend....you will have much more distortion, but some folks like it that way.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I've tried both and ended up back with top end SS (Accuphase).

Same here. I went the tube route, souded great but was a pain dealing with vintage tubes. After trying a QSC amp I realized that good SS is as good as tubes without the headaches. I then went with higher end SS equipment. Higher end SS is really nice.

[J.4knee]

IMHO quality amplification is quality amplification. I've heard tubes systems I enjoyed very much same for SS. I own and enjoy both neither of these are what I would consider my final destination but they each serve their purpose well and I enjoy them both. SS is more versatile if you ask me and it is likely when I do my next upgrade I'll go strictly with SS.

[jbsl]

I agree some of the high end$$$ SS gear can sound great and even some decent priced SS gear sound sound good. The same is true for tube gear!

Everyone has given you their opion on what works for them. So now it comes down to are you happy with your system or do you want to try a tube amp.

If you want to try a tube amps then find someone in your area who has tube gear with Klipsch(There must be someone from the forum in your area). If you do not like the "distorted" sound then you may want to look into upgrading your SS amp.

If you like the sound of the tube amp then you can decide on what tube amp to try.

For the people who have tried tube gear and did not like it I respect their opion but he said he likes his tube preamp so their is a good chance he would like a tube amp also.

I ended up doing the opposite of most people and went with a solid state Luxman int amp(L-505f) and use it as a preamp with a Cayin TA 30 tube amp(35 watts) with La Scalas.

When I use just the Luxman as a int amp it has a great sound and yes less distortion. When I compare just the Luxman to the Cayin with the Luxman the Luxman sounds a bit thin or flat. The Luxman still sounds great by itself but with the Cayin added the music sounds fuller, smoother, 3 demensional. So I suppose that is what the "distortion" add to the sound and I like it!

One of the forum members came over to my house cause he had never heard a tube amp. He just bought a pair of KHorns and also ordered a pair of La Sacala 2s and since I have 2004 La Scalas with almost the same crossovers he wanted to hear what a tube amp would sound like on them. I guess he like the sound(distortion) enough cause he ordered a Tempest 2 tube int amp 90 watts.

He may decided he likes the SS Halo gear he has sell the tube amp later or he may keep the tube amp but he is trying tube gear.

Other people don't like tube amps some do like the tube amp. The only way you are going to know it to try one.

[Guest " "]

"lol, nothing shakes fritz MAS, you better try a little harder to be insulting to him than you do everyone else."

Spongeworthy

Your ever hear the saying..."I don't like that person....I must get to know him better"

.....I will be calling MAS a freind someday.

[Parrot]

But maintain your
fantasy if you wish. Far be it from me to tell you that there is no
Santa Claus.

No Santa Claus!? Just what exactly are you saying here? I'm not sure I can handle this, if true.

[Deang]

No Mas! No Mas! No Mas!

[Gilbert]

No Mas! No Mas! No Mas!

Hark, what's that..... I think I hear Roberto Duran calling....

[Mallette]

Here is my only foray into the world of tubes, but i can tell you this....i never enjoy music as much as when i listen thru it. Sorry it's probably not what others would call Hi-Fi but it can sound oh so sweet. If i had to choose only one piece to keep this would be it.

Yeah, I remember those. I even had a set of wrenches like the one underneath for tweaking the TT...[]

Actually, my first "HiFi" efforts were in replacing the 6X9 oval "full range" speakers in my mom's GE tube-amp console stereo with Voice of Music 6X9's with a center tweeter purloined from school (I actually replaced the ones from home there...nobody ever noticed). I was amazed at the difference... Went down the path from there and am still on it...though I've long since given up crime.

Dave

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I agree some of the high end$$$ SS gear can sound great and even some decent priced SS gear sound sound good. The same is true for tube gear!

Agreed. Very good tube and SS equipment exists. I like SS because its easy. Flick a switch, no waiting an hour for everything to warm up, no replacing tubes. I have a friend who spends $1800 every 3 years to retube his VTL amps. Ouch! His system sounds awesome, but no better than my Musical Fidelity and Bryston equipment (IMHO).

In any event, go listen to some tube equipment on Klipsch. It mates very well. But don't expect a miracle to happen. The difference is not as much as you think. If you are using high quality SS you probably will not notice a difference.

[mas]

Thanks for explaining music to me. I have been associated with the

music industry for just a few years and I am well aware of the

arteeest's relationship with music. And I have very intimate with the

desire to create a sound as opposed to accurately reproducing a sound.

And I have been exposed to more absurdly priced SS and tube amps than

most, in addition to having or having had them in my possession.---etc etc.

---------------

Mas,

I think you explained what the incoming SIGNAL was about, but I don't see how that has much to do with why amplifiers A and B sound different, and why and how people express a preference for A or B. I assume you are familiar with various AB/X testing on subjects regarding amplifiers and other bits, so I doubt that you doubt there is a difference. I think there are people who say "all amplifiers sound the same." But, I doubt you are saying that, are you? So, if they do sound different, and people do express preferences about that, what are they hearing? Some would suggest it is simply small differences in levels at particular frequencies. As this story goes, amp A has a 0.1dB peak at 3500Hz that is not present in B, and B has a 0.1 dip at 2300Hz which is not present in A, so they sound different. Seems plausible to some degree. However, it doesn't begin to explain their "type" preferences for a certain topology. There are people who seem to always prefer tubes over transistors EVEN IF AND WHEN THEY BOTH MEASURE THE SAME IN DISTORTION.

I spend a fair bit of time measuring amplifiers. At least as much time as I spend listening to them. So, I am no anti-measurement guy by any means. However, I don't find a lot of correlation between the measurement quality and the sound quality. I've spent the last year or so developing a new amplifier. I've tried, as I am wont to do, many variations and adjustments and twiddles and I make measurements to see the effects. In general I can say this after 12 months or so: the versions which had the best measurements for THD didn't sound the best with music. Now, one explanation is that "he must like the sound of distortion." Fair enough. That can be logically deduced from a few statements above. It could be the explanation. But, there are also other explanations, and one of those might be this: THD when reduced to a certain level, doesn't make much improvement to reduce it further, especially when reducing it further involves the use of negative feedback. <---That's just an example of the many other explanations. I don't know the answer. I have observed first hand however, that various measurements don't mean much when you put the records on and play them through the various amps.

So, I can't see how it makes a scintilla of difference how the incoming signal was made when comparing amps. Guys were in booths, or not in booths, or used this mic or that, or were playing together or not makes no difference. The person doing the playback from his little disc can make no decent assumptions about HOW the signal got on the disc. He will simply judge how deceptive the results are or aren't. Deceptive in the presentation of what he/she might regard as musical.

You miss the point. First of all, I am not anti-tube. I run both SS and tubes. And what Tom said earlier is exactly correct.

And I am sorry if you say that what you are measuring has no correlation to the sound. So on the basis of that, I guess we can dismiss all of the posts of so many who go to great lengths to explain why tube distortion sounds so pleasing. My contention, like Tom's is that no distortion is good.

I am well aware of the grand tradition of tube amps in the music industry which has played a significant role specifically for their ability to distort and create a particular character. And that is fine as an FX generator in that role. Nevertheless I have no use for such an FX generator in the playback of the recorded signal.

And what I was referring to in regards to the recording process was directed towards those who feel that a particular amp may recreate or 'present' a more accurate soundstage or image. And they assume an accurate image is to be had. The image that is on a modern recording of popular music is a creation, not a recreation of an ensemble performance. Close micing cannot present phase interdependencies between multiple instruments - especially if there are none to speak of anyway! So the notion of so many in this regard, be they using SS or tube is moot! They imagine what does not exist.

And I know it seems confusing, but what is put to disk is what is recreated in the playback process. If the relationship is that confusing, well, so be it. But again, what is recorded, and the methods used to create the mix, have a direct bearing on what is available to be reproduced! And if many folks want to evaluate a recording on the basis of what they imagine should be there, as opposed to what is actually capable of being recorded as defined by the process, ...whispering: Sssssh! we won't tell them!

I was trying to find the online link to the recent AB shootout over the high end SS and tube units with the golden ears up in Colorado - where the results were that so many elite golden ears could not differentiate between tube and solid state with any regularity. They found great delight in embarrassing all of those erudite snobs in the AB/X tests. I can certainly understand why. But I will just have to scan for it when I get the chance.

But I will admit to a potential difference in sound. And both Tom and Trey stomped all over it. Tubes do not excel in tight defined bass. And as I go to lengths to insure that tubes are operated in their linear range, I have no interest whatsoever in the soft clipping and the resultant harmonics - distortion - tubes are capable of creating - however desirable some may find it. I save that for music and studio FX. And that is fine that some seem to like distortion. That is of course their option.

But operated in their non-linear ranges, both formats suffer. And yes, the sonic characteristics differ. Operated in their linear ranges, the results are much less distinguishable. And I still do not use tubes for dedicated LF reproduction.

Perhaps what amazes me the most is how so many fall over themselves to describe the non-linear distortion characteristics of tubes! Seems to me that they need a larger capacity amp. But I won't mention it if you won't.

Oh, and if buying into the deception and the fantasy results in satisfaction and that is what is desired, rather than trying to find such in in a multi-thousand dollar piece of electrical equipment, may I instead suggest drugs, they work much better and they are much cheaper... [^o)][8-)]To each his own I guess.

[cjgeraci]

But I will admit to a potential difference in sound. And both Tom and Trey stomped all over it. Tubes do not excel in tight defined bass. And as I go to lengths to insure that tubes are operated in their linear range, I have no interest whatsoever in the soft clipping and the resultant harmonics - distortion - tubes are capable of creating - however desirable some may find it. I save that for music and studio FX. And that is fine that some seem to like distortion. That is of course their option.

But operated in their non-linear ranges, both formats suffer. And yes, the sonic characteristics differ. Operated in their linear ranges, the results are much less distinguishable. And I still do not use tubes for dedicated LF reproduction.

================

1. "Tubes do not excel in tight defined bass."

You'd have to wonder then why so many bass players prefer tube amplifiers, wouldn't you? But seriously, since you are such a music expert, I assume you know that some bass is "tight sounding" and some is not, right? I mean you do know the difference between a tympani and an electric bass guitar I assume? Should we "tighten" the sound of the bass guitar to be more like a drum? This argument about tubes and bass is one of the silliest in the hobby. Bass reproduction depends on the room, the speaker and to some degree the amp. Let's take the least interesting musical content and make it the number one priority!

2. "But operated in their non-linear ranges, both formats suffer."

Who cares? Why is this even an argument. Yes, we should operate our amplifiers in their linear ranges! And, don't forget to brush your teeth boys and girls. And be sure to make good solid connections with your speaker wires. Wow---real insight there about amplifiers.

What exactly is the sound system you are using to play music on at home?

Shhhhh........Mark - I think that's a big secret. Noone is sure exactly what MAS has for gear or if he even owns Klipsch speakers. All we really know from MAS is that he has years and years and years of expertise in the music industry, and he must know what he is talking about. And if you don't remember, he will remind you about his wealth of experience and/or knowledge. On the other hand, I do not know anything about what we discuss, but just sit in here trying to learn........

I'm not sure that anyone is exactly sure what he runs for sources, amps, or speakers, either in the present or in the past.

Many previously have asked him the question, and he has declined to answer. Maybe, MAS will fess up and tell you.....................................

Carl.

[mas]

But I will admit to a potential difference in sound. And both Tom

and Trey stomped all over it. Tubes do not excel in tight defined bass.

And as I go to lengths to insure that tubes are operated in their

linear range, I have no interest whatsoever in the soft clipping and

the resultant harmonics - distortion - tubes are capable of creating -

however desirable some may find it. I save that for music and studio

FX. And that is fine that some seem to like distortion. That is of

course their option.

But operated in their non-linear

ranges, both formats suffer. And yes, the sonic characteristics differ.

Operated in their linear ranges, the results are much less distinguishable. And I still do not use tubes for dedicated LF reproduction.

================

1. "Tubes do not excel in tight defined bass."

You'd have to wonder then why so many bass players prefer tube amplifiers, wouldn't you? But seriously, since you are such a music expert, I assume you know that some bass is "tight sounding" and some is not, right? I mean you do know the difference between a tympani and an electric bass guitar I assume? Should we "tighten" the sound of the bass guitar to be more like a drum? This argument about tubes and bass is one of the silliest in the hobby. Bass reproduction depends on the room, the speaker and to some degree the amp. Let's take the least interesting musical content and make it the number one priority!

2. "But operated in their non-linear

ranges, both formats suffer."

Who cares? Why is this even an argument. Yes, we should operate our amplifiers in their linear ranges! And, don't forget to brush your teeth boys and girls. And be sure to make good solid connections with your speaker wires. Wow---real insight there about amplifiers.

What exactly is the sound system you are using to play music on at home?

1.) Why do they use them??? Because they do distort!!! They are creating a sound! Not reproducing it!!! Boy, those electric basses have such a rich resounding full tone! Duh!!!!! and you may be amazed to know that the standard studio bass head has been the Gallien Krueger 2000 series and Hartke HA3500. And most of the best players are using SS amps with various front ends!

Bass reproduction depends on the room? Wow, listen up folks, we are getting an advanced lesson in acoustics! Room gain may add to the perceived gain of the bass, and superposition can change the perceives spectral content, but no bass player counts on the room to change the sound of the bass - especially as they are closed miced and run a DI! And how often are they depending on playing in a small room? That entire point is simply moot.

2. Why indeed! And yet the tube proponents depend upon it! Here, I'll wait as you go back and read the thread!

And since you think the mention of linear operation is so fundamental, where have you been in EVERY thread on the forum regarding tubes, INCLUDING THIS ONE, where the primary advantage of tubes has been stated to be the even harmonics imparted with the clipping of the tube???

If its SOOOOO fundamental, how about lecturing them - the plethora of folks lined up to cite this characteristic! We even have 'reputable' studies posted! ROFLMAO! Now you even mock the tube supporters!

And I have a variety of amps and have used MANY more in many settings from SR rigs to studios! At home I have several Crown 2400's, 24x6 MacroTechs, D75As, K2s and the primary tube amp is a Audio Research / Bill Johnson modified D90B-SP 2 of a kind amp that has alternately run KT77s and now KT66s driving the LaScalas (that I got when we were touring with Jethro Tull as a result of being

invited to check out what was then referred to as the Klipsch "Motengator" system

on a runway that Klipsch was trying to interest us in in about 1975 that

they were working on (and perhaps someone else has more details about

that)) and Velodyne HGS18Series2 subs, in addition to several other systems. And I have had more speakers starting with A7s and built more than a sane person should have. And over the years I have had Threshold and Krell Class A SS and Conrad Johnson tubes.

And I have worked with MANY more absurdly priced amps in studio settings, not to mention >150KW of SR power. So what is it to you? Some of us have done more in the industry then just sit and pretend to hear the inaudible. And I have worked with more bass amps in 40 years than anyone should have the privilege of luggin around, in addition to playing both electric (1972 Fender rosewood Precision fretless and a Gibson 1967 EB3 ) and an upright acoustic bass (1938 Kay M4-blond). And that is simply a teensy piece of my background!

But it was very interesting to learn about the bass, and how it is the least important part of the audio spectrum! But that sounds consistent with someone trying to rationalize their emotional bias towards tubes!

But the fact is that I have dealt with so many various pieces of equipment since the 1970s that it really doesn't matter!

And the irony is that YOU and others are the ones who mention experience, and then complain if others say they have it. I'll gladly compare my resume against yours anytime. How's that go...It ain't braggin if you've done it.

So I am sure there is some point to your quiz as to whether I have ever used an amplifier before! Sure I have...its that thing that has knobs and gets hot! I sure hope I used the right words to describe one of them things to an audiophile...as us ignort people who have played and worked in the pro side don't have dog ears no more. Wese all deaf. Well, 'ceptin those of us who chose to wear them weeny earplugs all the years. We alz just turn them speekers fasing down on the flor so we can feel the vibes through the floor and ar feets.

But this has gotten old. If you have an opinion about amps, just say it. And I could care less what you have at home. It obviously hasn't helped.

[Guest " "]

"What exactly is the sound system you are using to play music on at home? "

I can lend him a tube pre-amp, a set of Heresy speakers, monster M1000 interconnect, Monster M-1 wires, some Balanced power isolation transformers, a set of ZeroImpedance speaker autoformers, I not longer have any tube amps, but i have a small assortment of new tubes that he can tube roll. All he needs to do is pay postage round trip.

I think he has an intrest...and probally means well.