I almost want to cut off my ears...

[NOSValves]

No amount of different amplifiers will change a room problem.

By the same token no amount of room treatments will change a poor system match. Most budget multi channel receivers sound absolutely dreadful in two channel mode with music which in turn emphasizes the room problems. I think there is no single solution to this problem.

Craig

[Deang]

DrWho said, "One other thing you might wanna make sure of is that you're sending a digital signal from the player to the receiver. Every receiver converts the signal to digital (even when fed an analog input) so it's best to avoid the extra DA/AD conversion."

That's a really good place to start in this case. All the reviews I've read for the Oppo players say the analog outputs sound nothing short of terrible. The new Reference stuff is actually more forgiving than its predecessors, so I'm inclined to agree with those who are blaming the electronics.

Most everyone has room problems of some sort, and it's important to deal with them -- but no amount of room treatments can overcome the tizz, hash, and grain found in most mid-fi products. OTOH, if you like the sound of tizz, hash, and grain -- room treatments will ensure that you hear that stuff as the engineers intended.

[DrWho]

I might agree partially to the "tizz, hash, and grain", but let's keep in mind that there is also crappy bass. Having actual real experience with the receivers in question, I can attest to the fact that they have no problems with the bass.

I get a kick out of all the people claiming that "oh it can't be the room" when they have no experience with room acoustics. I wouldn't mind if someone tried both and felt that an amp made a bigger difference, but I don't think that's the case here. I get a lot of crap for being young, but let's keep in mind that the real issue there is experience...

That said, any of y'all tried both?

[michael hurd]

I still stand by the fact that the room has more impact on the sound than anything. Room induced peaks and valleys can be horrendous, a factor of magnitude more than a a bit of " flavourful EQ " . I didn't hear many complaints at all at the pilgrammage despite the fact that most all the speakers you listened to were driven by solid state devices, including more than a handful of pro power amplifiers.

[tigerbalm]

the guy's problem is elementary.

IMOH, acoustics should be explored much later.

[PrestonTom]

You are getting some good advice from Dr Who, especially regarding the bass response. Listen to what he has to say.

Some (but not all) of the other problems may be lessened by doing some experimentation on the placement of the speakers and the chair, and by changing the degree of toe-in on the cabinets. The experimentation can be tedious but worthwhile.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[oldbuckster]

I tend to listen to more music on the Scott than the Yamaha, I use to snicker when members would say that, but it's true, music sounds more real with tubes and sorta' mechanical with SS to me now........even if you have a room problem, changing amps will still sound better.............

[seti]

Do you have more than one room you can listen to your system in? Perhaps one that you can tell is acoustically different from the other. When I move through my house I can tell the difference between three of the rooms.

Lots of good advice between the jabs. Pick your battles carefully. Can't go wrong by investigating the room. Tubes sound great on Klipsch speakers. Unless your a great painter don't cut your ear off.

Good luck let us know what you find out.

[garymd]

I have all the respect in the world for you tech guys but this seems like an open and shut case to me. I've never modified a listening room and I've been able to put together some decent sounding systems. My basement's acoustics are horrible yet my Khorn system has had some fairly good reviews by other forum members. Is it possible you might be over-thinking this one?

Anyone in his area willing to bring over a tube amp to audition? This could be fun

[dbflash]

bet you are using stranded speaker wire.

i'm using a denon with cornwalls, no room treatment's who no problems anymore.

and before you all let me know how dumb i am, i already know.

danny

[oldtimer]

Pin your ears back against your head as much as possible with your hands (basically the opposite of cupping your hands around them). This will give you an idea of what it would sound like if you cut them off. Experiments have shown that the sound will be more diffuse, less focused....

[kaiser SET say]

I would like to agree with the room guys especially if you have no sound deadening properties like wall apps and rug/carpet but at your distance I'm inclined to believe nice tube amplification along with shoring those babies up with the back walls may yeild the best results for you. Still may need a sub also if you like heavy bass!

A bright room will fatigue you with heavy reflection 3 times as fast as a room with deadening IMHO.

I don't think your dumb Danny but I would like to know if your running # 6 solid ground wire to you speaks[]

You have been suggested a few good tube inty solutions already and I could add a few that would fit your budget[]

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1196393879

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1195910346

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1195773931

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1194104341

[dp1954]

I'd have agree with gary.. try a different amp(preferably tubes) and see what you get. Or pick up a cheap hk430/630/930 and see what you get. Those can be had for around 100bucks with shipping on ebay.. Problems I had in the past with 'ear wire' have been fixed/made much better with better electronics. the bass tightend up also... Just my opinion...........

Dave

[HarryO]

"Within the boundaries of my apartment living room, I am about 8 feet away from the speakers, and the speakers are about 5 feet apart."

I'm a firm believer in tubes and I'll probably be locked in the Bose room for a couple of days for saying this but at the distances you're talking about it's probably not the Denon. IF at all possible spread the speakers out and angle them behind your sweet spot. Being just 8' away and directly in front of you just 5' apart, I can't imagine not getting migranes if you prolong the listening.

I'm with Dr. Who on this one. Try relocating your speakers. I believe it will be the cure. The Denon most likely isn't the culprit in this case. Before you spend the bucks and not cure the problem I'd be doing some re-arranging first.

Harry

[jacksonbart]

Those room guys are crazy, you can buy this uniform (being modeled by Deang) from me and it will wipe all room interaction from your ears. You will also look top notch to boot. (it does not come with boots however)

[kaiser SET say]

You're in rare form today JB[] Beam me up Dean[]

[stormin]

I don't think the only way to get rid of a sharp bright edge from the your Klipsch is to use tubes. I've had several different ss setups with several different types of speakers over the years. I've owned Chorus II's for about 17 years off and on and these speakers can get right in your face fast. I've had ss gear that would cut through you like a knife. Listen to it for half an hour and just turn it off. And would have to turn it up so darn loud to get any bass. I think every part of the chain makes a pretty significant difference. Beginning at the source to the speakers. I've been having complete success with a nice Marantz 2325 as a preamp. I would say if you wanted to smooth things out significantly without breaking the bank you could go with a Marantz 2325. I have an HK930 and yes its a great fit with Klipsch as well but it aint no Marantz 2325. Then when you want to take it up another notch add a QSC.[]

Don't forget to get a good source. Find a musical cd player or get a nice turntable. It will make a huge difference as well.

Your room is gonna make a big difference as well.

You can't go wrong with tubes either.

PS: It should be known that this is all IMHO. Also should be known that I am a 43 year old "HEADBANGER". My post is worthless without disclosing this info.

[thebes]

From the official Klipsch FAQ section on placing main speakers:

" A. Correct
speaker placement leads to the best sounding bass and the best imaging.
It is generally a good idea to keep speakers 4-6' away from side walls
to minimize early reflections. Those reflections upset the tonal
balance of the speaker and also interfere with proper imaging. In
general, placing a speaker closer to a corner or back wall will produce
more bass. Raising a speaker off of the floor (such as putting it on a
stand) will reduce bass. The two (or three) speakers you have on your
front channels should also have their midrange/tweeters all at the same
height in order to create an even image. It is particularly
disconcerting when a pan jumps up and down as it moves across the front
stage.

Finally, we recommend, with Klipsch speakers, that the
midrange/tweeter horn be "toed-in" toward the listener to create the
best imaging. Experiment with distance from the back wall till bass
balance is smooth and extended. To achieve good imaging without a "hole
in the middle" do not place speakers father apart than the distance
between you and the speakers. That is, not more than an equilateral
triangle. If your speakers are too close together, you will reduce the
width of the image almost to mono. Try to keep the distance between
your Left and Right speakers a little more than half of the distance
from you to the nearest speaker."

It would be silly to lay out one single dime without taking the time to play around with placement and listening position. It costs nothing. That's right it's absolutely free and may help you decide the next step to take. If you are 8 feet away and the speakers are 5 feet apart the "sweet spot", the place the music should sound the best. is 3 feet in front of you.

So in and out, side to side, toe in or facing straight out. Then borrow a DVD or cd player from a friend or family player and see if that makes a difference. Also try plugging in your gear straight into the wall. Only then should you start thinking about getting rid of the Denon. Forget cables and speaker wire, by the way. Any perceived differences (and many claim to hear them) would be too subtle to substantially effect the problem you are having.

[garymd]

I was just kidding. Room acoustics and speaker placement are causing all of your problems.

[cjgeraci]

Just buy a pair of Jubilees and be done with it!!!!![*-)]

Carl.