I almost want to cut off my ears...

[kaiser SET say]

I was just kidding. Room acoustics and speaker placement are causing all of your problems.

Right[] Your point on tubbage is just as valid as the others Gary[]

Thebes is 100% correct but I thought these perameters would have been tested during the glare faze[] It's obvious he is just about near field with the dimensions and layout given but if not it's paramount you get that gurdle on right[:$]

My first question about your room are the speakers backed into solid wall corners? Toe to the sweet spot and then see if you have glare relief! I think it was mentioned about a washrag but I have placed a thin sheet of foam behind the grill in front of the upper end drivers and cut significant amouts of sharpness out before also. If none of this gives you the total relief your looking for do consider some sort of nice tube inty[8]

[garymd]

Tastes great!

Less Filling!!

Tastes great!!!

Less filling!!!!

Tastes great!!!!!

Less filling!!!!!!

Edit: And yes, I would also assume some placement experimentation would have taken place before coming here to post. In any case, it looks like we drove this fine gentleman away. Either that or he's sitting back and laughing his a$$ off at us for spending so much time arguing over his problem. Maybe Paul logged on at the library and made all this up to see what would happen. Ever see the Twilight Zone where the men from outer space screwed around with the folks on Maple St. to see how they would react? They all turned on each other!

[kaiser SET say]

LOL, THX GAry, I'm going home to have a cold Guinness on that note[]

[Macho Nacho]

If your serious about it, I would look into electrocauterization before you cut them off. Make sure you have the tools on site prior to the operation. My uncle cut off his ears with out planning ahead like that and well he bleed an aweful before becoming unconscious. Also another tip, drinking a bottle of Jim Beam does not ensure that you won't feel any pain.

[Fish]

the guy's problem is elementary.

IMOH, acoustics should be explored much later.

That's a statement I can agree with.There is work to be done before that set makes it to the "room acoustics"stage.I'm not taking anything away from the room guys,it's very very important once you've got a set that will deliver the goods.If you say "I've got this set and I'm not changing it",then the room is next.As nos said(I think)these low end avrs are the worst thing that could happen to music and on Klipsch,forgetaboutit.

[thebes]

"Thebes is 100% correct"

Wow, I've never seen those particular words here before when discussing a technical question. I may have to change my signature and employ that trenchant and accurate conclusion to the betterment of allforum members.

Look, I've used an el cheapo Yammie avr receiver and currently use a Denon 2803 AVR for HT. I've used the Denon with Kg 5.2's, 3.5's, 4.2's, Heresy's and Cornies and well it may not be tubes the Denon delivers a good solid state sound.

I repeat try the free stuff first.

[Erik Mandaville]

FisherBBC:

All of what was said -- amplfiers, room acoustics, system matching -- might be part of what you experienced. Another possibility might be that you found a speaker in the B&W that suits your listening preferences more. When all is said and done, what counts isn't really a name or name brand, but what you have found you like.

I understand what you are saying about huge sound from smaller speakers. The pair below fits that description exactly, and I love listening to them.

There's a good chance that some of the suggestions made will help tame things down with the speakers you have. Maybe you'll like them more; maybe not. People buy and sell amps and preamps and source equipment here on a regular basis, and it's possible in this case that the component that holds the key for you is one that may not necessarily be Klipsch. Use what sounds best to you and have fun!

Don't cut your ears off.

Erik

[psg]

NIce thread.

My points are minor:

1- It's possible to get great sound with an HT receiver. I use an h/k avr-325 and love the sound.

2- I don't think your speakers are spread apart sufficiently, or you are stting too far.

3- Do try to point the tweeters right at you.

4- Any glass in that room? Are you tried them in another room? Even outside?

5- If you can borrow the B&W to try them at home, see if they still sound as good on your receiver, in your room, before you spend good money on speakers.

6- I think it's the room and speaker placement, but it's possible that you just don't like that line of Klipsch speakers!

I hope it works out for you.

[joshnich]

I agree with Gary before he said he was joking. A while back, my brother in law who would always go gaga listening to my stereo bought a pair of RF 7s on my recommendation. Took them home and hooked them up to his very expensive Denon receiver and was immediately on the phone mad at me because the speakers sounded so crappy. I took over a NOS Valves 299 and problem solved. End of story.

Josh

[jacksonbart]

If you cut off your ears take some pictures and post them

[DrWho]

I'm kinda curious how many of the "anti acoustics" guys have actual

experience dealing with acoustics in order for them to claim that it

can't possibly be a problem. I get crap all the time for being young,

but I would argue this lack of real world experience is exactly the

same thing. What's more crazy is this lack of experience is offering

more expensive options [] I like Thebes' approach....start with the

free stuff first and get them speakers and listening position placed

properly in the room.

There is absolutely no reason why someone couldn't get a good sound

from this hardware configuration. It's just kinda sad that others

having experience with similar gear weren't able to figure out how to

do it. I can say that because I've had plenty of time playing with the

fancy expensive "audiophile" amps to become very familiar with the

possible improvements. It's nowhere near the magnitude of properly

setting up a system...

[maxg]

Within the boundaries of my apartment living room, I am about 8 feet away from the speakers, and the speakers are about 5 feet apart. As for the source, I am currently using the Oppo HD970 universal player. I am strictly using the system for stereo, (which is why I am hoping to part with the Denon). I tend to enjoy acoustic music, but I also enjoy heavily layered rock albums. The clarity and detail is great, the midrange is a bit muddy at times, the bass unrefined, but the main problem is the screeching high frequencies that leave my ears fatigued. I would much rather a warm, refined, skilled sound coming from my 62's instead of the brash and forward sound they so easily accomodate. Are there any cables, speaker or interconnect, that could also limit the horn harshness? Thanks everyone so far for your help!

OK, my turn.

In my limited experience it is possible to minimize the effect of the room by going nearfield. Try placing the speakers about 4 feet apart and then sit a similar distance from the centre line between the 2 - you can play a little with the height of your chair. You can also play with the toe-in angles to see if there is any position that sounds better in that configuration.

I am not suggesting this is how you want to setup your stereo, of course, merely that this will serve to reduce the interferance from the room and then allow you to assess if you like the sound from the system.

Basically what you are looking for is whether or not you like the sound this way. If not then I would suggest investigating alternative amplification is a valid approach. If you do like the sound then, there are a number of possibilities which may be in addition to the room accoustics issue:

You may simply have bought the wrong speakers. Klipsch is not a laid back sound, neither is B&W particuarly - although they are quite different from each other.

You may have an amp or source issue, as mentioned above. This will generally not change the basic sound of the speaker but they might well ameliorate some of the excessive sibilance and lack of bass control you appear to be describing.

I would ask what amplification was driving the B&W's at the store when you heard them? Was it comparible in cost to your own amp/reciever?

Other than that - keep us posted.

[Deang]

I don't think anyone here is "anti-acoustics", at least I'm not -- but he could work the room and play with placement until the cows come home and still end up with a lot of nasties coming through that horn because of the downstream components. Of course, if the room is contributing to the problem, then he'll be left with those problems regardless of what he upgrades. You can't fix room problems with gear, but you can't fix gear problems by working on the room either. You can get pretty good sound in a bad room with good gear, bad gear just sounds bad no matter what you do to the room.

[garymd]

I agree with Gary before he said he was joking. A while back, my brother in law who would always go gaga listening to my stereo bought a pair of RF 7s on my recommendation. Took them home and hooked them up to his very expensive Denon receiver and was immediately on the phone mad at me because the speakers sounded so crappy. I took over a NOS Valves 299 and problem solved. End of story.

Josh

I was joking about joking.

Well said Dean. My basement system is proof that good gear can sound good in a bad room.

I remember replacing my trusty Kenwood KR-9600 receiver I'd used with my Cornwalls for over 20 years with a Sony ES HT receiver and couldn't believe how bad it sounded. I ended up with tubes not long after that but there's no way I would have been able to live with the Sony in 2-channel after all those years with a good SS amp (in a really good room too!). I guess what I'm saying is there's no way that setup will sound good IMO unless you're used to really crappy 2-channel sound. Been there, done that.

[NOSValves]

I'm kinda curious how many of the "anti acoustics" guys have actual experience dealing with acoustics in order for them to claim that it can't possibly be a problem. I get crap all the time for being young, but I would argue this lack of real world experience is exactly the same thing. What's more crazy is this lack of experience is offering more expensive options [] I like Thebes' approach....start with the free stuff first and get them speakers and listening position placed properly in the room.

There is absolutely no reason why someone couldn't get a good sound from this hardware configuration. It's just kinda sad that others having experience with similar gear weren't able to figure out how to do it. I can say that because I've had plenty of time playing with the fancy expensive "audiophile" amps to become very familiar with the possible improvements. It's nowhere near the magnitude of properly setting up a system...

I've dealt with countless different rooms with varying acoustic problems and have never had to resort to acoustic treatments to get acceptable sound. This "accetable sound" was the opinion of many people hearing the systems in question sometimes in the hundreds count. I do however play with speaker/system placement for all of about 30 minutes or so. Now with that said I'm sure that the sound could of been improved in some of these rooms no denying that. My point here is if the system is putting out acceptable sound and placement is optimized the room will not and can not take it to the point of a person wanting to "cut his ears off".

Craig

[PrestonTom]

One of the symptoms originally mentioned (in addition to the bass problem) indicated there may have been too much energy at the very high frequencies.

A very obvious and very inexpensive "experiment" is based on the following fact. The frequency response of the the mid and tweeter (especially) does roll off as you go off axis (to the side). This should be a big hint that perhaps you could modify or tame this excess by changing the toe-in of the speaker cabinet (or even closing the drapes). This is an "acoustic" solution and does not require spending money on amps. It will either improve things or not (certainly it wil "sound different").

It my also be the case that the user desires different sort of frequency response (and I am not talking about a necessarily accurate response). In this case an equalizer may be the solution to changing the response (not for "fixing" the room). Personally, if this is the case, I do not think amps are a good substitute for an equalizer. Go back and look at the original complaint, but we are only guessing what the actual symptoms are (sound is difficult to describe with words).

Good Luck,

-Tom

[dp1954]

If he wants to 'tone' them down he just needs to point the speakers in the opposite direction........... Problem solved!!!

[kaiser SET say]

I think you may be right Mark on all accounts above.

I have found too many ss not just inexpensive HT rec to be way thin on power and I usually thinks it's really the power supply in these units producing too thin a sound which becomes harsh and shrill especially on horns! This has just been my experience and not gospel before I take a beating from the SS aficionados come down on me[]

Heck, I'm driving my speakers with a SS amp but I will say my Las sound waaaaaaay different on my B&W 804's[] Niether sound bad just one is far more efficient and in your face than the far less efficient ones which image totally different[]

So many valid points brought up in this thread, love Max's speaker placement/room acoustics 101 which is such a good remedy finder especially in a small room[] The most inexpensive room acoustic treatment I always use is rugs or blankets on the floors and walls. If you do this one usually cost free test (also play various records or disk for different production quality) you can eliminate the room and concentrate on what's driving the highs in the components to a level one would even consider such an attack on ones own body[8-)]

It is belief (at least mine) that nothing does a Klipsch horn speaker better than nice warm, full and decaying tube watts[8]

[cjgeraci]

It doesn't seem FisherBBC (original poster) is much interested in all this intense advise. He may have already cut his ears off. Hope not.

It would easy to see how his room might make a dreadful sound. Doubly easy to see how his amplifiers would make a dreadful sound, since he named them. At this point, we know more about his amps than his room, right? I've had a few occasions to connect cheap SS receivers to various Klipsch speakers and all I can say is, well....."Hey, can you turn it down?" Gee, if he has a bad room and lousy amps imagine that sound?

Good points, Mark - for all that we know, maybe its both the room and the choice of receiver/amplification. After all, I've had some horrid SS receivers, and I believe in (and use) room treatments.

I wonder whether those who are asserting that it "must be the room" (and who appear to be discounting the possibility that it may be the AVR) either have a vested interest in Denon or actually own Denon equipment (I confess that I actually own and like my Denon DVD player). []

After all, this is an entry-level Denon AVR that we are talking about with a MSRP of about $300. Not an AVR-5805.................

On the other hand, haven't some opined that the latest Reference series had been toned down a bit to make them more compatible with AVRs? Ok, maybe its only the room [:|]

Carl.

[mas]

been there done that, get off solid state stuff (great for other speakers, not Klipsch) and move into tubes. (you can leave cdp solid-state no problems).

Miracles do happen.

(forget about acoustics...)